Author Topic: BnZ problems  (Read 2838 times)

Offline DEECONX

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BnZ problems
« on: March 28, 2010, 04:25:06 PM »
Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill  :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated  :pray

Offline DEECONX

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2010, 05:01:04 PM »
No, I figured out what my F***ing problem is, I dont have a wingman. Everyone time I end up in a fight, about a min into the fight, they call for their wingman, then a 1v1 goes to 1v2, and I'm screwed. I really need a wingman who flies as much as I do, and flies P-51D and flies Bish, until then, I can only up, find a bad guy, then leave because I'm outnumbered and get called a runstang  :mad:

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2010, 05:13:54 PM »
Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct?

Yes, these planes are well suited for BnZ attacks.

Quote
Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill  :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated  :pray

In order to be able to use an attack successfully, you have to know what attack is supposed to do.  When people mention BnZ in game, they have an incorrect notion what it is and the majority don't know how to properly BnZ.  Most think it's just diving on an enemy from high altitude, hope to catch in unaware, fire a burst and then zoom back up to altitude and extend a half sector away, come back and repeat.  All this does is allow what happens to you, the bandit is able to regain whatever energy and altitude is lost making the evasive break turn.
 
Proper BnZ by its very nature is an aggressive tactic. The intent of BnZ is to force the target to bleed his energy to such a state that he is no longer able to avoid your next pass or creates an angle that allows for a shot.  BnZ is also a patience game, in most cases you will not get the kill on the first pass.  Use the first pass to set up your 2nd pass, however, if you see an angle that you can get a good probability of a shot on the first pass take it.  

When you spot your target below you, make sure that when you start your dive that you're not too high up that you run the risk of over speeding and diving below the bandit.  Usually, if I spot the target below me and he's at least 3,000ft lower, I'll start to spiral down using my throttle to help keep my speed in check until I make my attack.  I also don't dive straight down at the target or at a steep angle.  I usually come in from an offset six position trying for at least a 35 to 40 degree dive angle.  This way when I go into my Zoom climb, I'm not pulling any more Gs than necessary and not wasting energy needlessly.

If the bandit breaks, depending on my offset six angle I came at, I may be presented with an angle as the bandit is in the apex of his breaking turn.  If I can take this shot by just rolling into his breaking turn and get a good lead by pulling minimum amount of Gs, I'll take it.  However, if I see that I cannot take the shot because I would have to pull too many G's to pull sufficient lead, or he broke out of line of sight, I'll just extend beyond guns range and then go into my Zoom climb, looking behind me all the time to see what the bandit is doing.  If the bandit used the break to try and escape, I'll immediately reverse my Zoom before I extend too far and start my attack again.  

At this point, you can usually tell the quality of the pilot, if he's a good pilot, he'll be able to retain energy enough to avoid the attacks for a few passes.  If he's not very good, you'll usually get the kill on your first pass.

If you're facing an experienced pilot and he's managed to avoid a couple of your passes, do not lose patience and be overly aggressive that it over rules any advantages you had.  Patience is a virtue when it comes to any form of Energy fighting and BnZ is no different.  Lose patience and lose the fight.

Having said that, use your passes to set up your next pass.  If the bandit avoids your first attack, use your second attack to set up the third.  This is called 'Tap Dancing on the head of the bandit' and is intended to set up your next pass by using a feint attack to set it up.

When you make your firing pass and go into the Zoom portion, you do not want to extend more than d2.0 from the target and that's stretching things a little bit.  Extend any further and you run the risk of allowing the target to start to regain his energy and altitude or at the very least, set up maneuver for your next pass.  In some cases, the bandit is able to build up some energy as you're diving on him (bandit is in a shallow dive) and is able to break into your attack.  If this happens, extend beyond gun range and then pull into a shallow high speed climb, steeping the climb as you go up.  If the bandit is following you up, just turn the BnZ pass into a Rope-A-Dweeb and pounce as he stalls.

If the bandit is trying to use a vertical barrel roll to create an overshoot as you make your pass, do not pull into the vertical.  Instead just do as normal, extend beyond gun range (best at an angle offset from the direction the bandit did the vertical barrel roll), shallow high speed climb, steepen it up and then make your next attack.

Be aggressive not overly aggressive and always stay patient.  Once you get the hang of properly using BnZ attacks, you'll find that multi-bandit engagements where you find yourself above 2 more bandits easier to engage in and win.  In cases like these, you can tap dance on their heads to control and manage the fight by keeping them all grouped up while you make your passes.  

Honestly, BnZ flown how it's supposed to be done is actually an amazing thing to watch, especially when a single pilot is using it to engage 2 or more bandits.  

ack-ack



« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 05:45:58 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline kingcobradude

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 05:14:23 PM »
No, I figured out what my F***ing problem is, I dont have a wingman. Everyone time I end up in a fight, about a min into the fight, they call for their wingman, then a 1v1 goes to 1v2, and I'm screwed. I really need a wingman who flies as much as I do, and flies P-51D and flies Bish, until then, I can only up, find a bad guy, then leave because I'm outnumbered and get called a runstang  :mad:
join my squad and well set you up with wingmen whenever possible
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 05:22:39 PM »
Yes, these planes are well suited for BnZ attacks.

etc...

pure gold :aok
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Offline SPKmes

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 05:42:12 PM »
As AckAck said...I thought that was well said....Basically you need to work out whether you are going to turn or buzz....I know when I get somebody who does this right to me I find it extremely annoying...the problem most have is the patients side of things......many fall into the trap of turning because the con gives them enough of a taste that they feel they can get them if they pull around a little more...//patients is what is needed......don't deviate from what your initial plan was......most times you are being forced/sucked into playing the cons game.

on a side note...the two planes mentioned do have a good turn fighting ability also..you just need to decide before you enter the fight what it is you intend to do...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 05:46:59 PM by SPKmes »

Offline DEECONX

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 05:53:20 PM »
Thanks guys, will keep working out the best I can.


Offline DEECONX

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 05:54:11 PM »
join my squad and well set you up with wingmen whenever possible



 :rofl

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 06:08:01 PM »


 :rofl

I think he meant to say, "bait whenever possible".


ack-ack
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Offline Saxman

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 06:13:16 PM »
Positioning for your second attack also involves more than just popping back onto your perch. KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR TARGET AT ALL TIMES (can never stress this enough. Don't fly with your head in your instruments, keep the bandit in view except for the periodic checks to your rear) and watch what your opponent is doing: Which way did he break? Did he turn back the other way? Use that information to set up your next pass.

For example:

You're diving on the target and he breaks to the left. Rather than force the shot you pull back up into the vertical. Keeping your target in view, you see he continues his left-hand turn. What you may do here is turn your extension into a high yo-yo, or oblique loop to the left: You're following him through his left-hand turn, but converting your larger turn radius because of your speed into vertical rather than horizontal separation:



This same process works for almost any move your opponent makes. It's just a matter of knowing where your opponent is and inferring from that where he's going to be, and setting yourself up accordingly. It takes some practice, but it's doable.
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Offline DEECONX

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 07:01:58 PM »
I think he meant to say, "bait whenever possible".


ack-ack

 :aok


Thanx Saxman! The visual really helps!

Offline Stoney

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 07:08:06 PM »
Remember that each pilot in the MA has an incredible amount of SA built into the game.  The clipboard map, bar dar, dot dar, icons with closure indicators--all of these things work against a historical BnZ attack in the style recommended by most of the USAAF tactics of the period.

That being said, Sax's diagram is the perfect illustration of Ack-Ack's suggestion to stay aggressive.  Its like leading with the cue ball in pool--ever maneuver should set up your next attack.  Usually, I make a series of very high speed passes showing an early break as soon as the con maneuvers defensively.  Then, after he expects the usual pull off the attack and climb back to altitude, I'll roll in with a very aggressive maneuver if I can commit to the 1v1 fight.  You don't want to be caught flat-footed in the Jug when help shows up.

Last, keep an eye on the enemy situation.  You can't commit to any fight in the MA if 3 or 4 reds are on their way to your fight, unless you've got a large speed advantage to extend away, or your a masterful stick and intend on dispatching them very quickly in succession.

p.s. If you're in a Jug, learn to fight it as light as you can possibly make it.  The M and N models especially turn in some very much improved performance numbers when they're operated at about 25% fuel and half and ammo load.
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Offline DEECONX

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 09:07:13 PM »
Thanx Stoney!

Offline Lepape2

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 09:45:52 PM »
Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill  :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated  :pray
:salute
I will just say this out of experience and I may be wrong on some points. Correct me if it is the case. Its just a little trick I developed over the past few months.

There is an effective way to defend against BnZs and also another way to turn the tides and gain the advantage (at least to get a decent shot). (This can work even with a Jug D-11 VS a 109K4 or P38)

[1]If you are caught slow and catch a con on your 6 in a shallow dive, start a shallow dive as well and keep him on your 6. When the con is about 2-3k behind with a reasonably fast closing rate, start a very faint L/H or R/H turn (I prefer R/H). While watching the con on your six, gradually pull more and more Gs until you start hitting the 5Gs mark at about 1k-800 range... by this time, he doesn't have such a high deflection shot opportunity on you, but either his corner speed can't make him point his guns at you or hes blacking out so bad and can't see a thing. If you pulled too soon, he has a large deflection angle and you can just roll 90degrees toward the ground at the last second (600-800range) and pull just a little bit to avoid the shot (95% of times you shouldn't even hear a single ping). Usually it can prevent you from gaining E effectively but can strain you con's patience as well because it is so efficient (although with a good altitude advantage) and can force your opponent to think about turning with you instead of playing it safe. Just do some rolling scissors with them if you are good at it.

[2]If you are caught slow
and catch a con on top of you in a steep dive, grab speed as fast as you can (you want a good 250mph) while turning toward him on a horizontal plane. this will force him to keep his very steep attack angle and make him pull a lot of Gs on the way up. You want him to give him a 90degree deflection shot the first pass - your speed being the only thing prepping you for his 2nd pass. As soon as he misses his shot, pull up gently and climb toward him as hes struggling against Gs going back up. You may want to shoot him at this point but usually, its impossible shots (you can shoot some warning shots if you like to increase the pressure on him). As he is above you (usually 1.5 or 2k), he will be forced to come back down very quickly (shooting him will make him rethink and wait a little bit more while you grab some E right below him). Show him you are the victim and you want to be killed!

As he comes back down (point him your lift vector to be ready for the next move), you might be in the 200-225 speed range, its now time to pull up as fast as you can. He will be surprised at the closing rate and will not be able to correct his trajectory effectively. He can't pull Gs enough to reach you, he is pointing straight down and you are pointing straight up. What a best way to gain E on him! As he pulls back up, you should have just enough E to point your nose up at him during his vertical climb out (looking more like a failed rope at this point) and have a deadly 400-600 accurate 50Cals thrown at him.
At worst, if you miss, hes going to panic, head back down at 100mph and you, barely able to hold it on him, but enough to kill him with a good chance of succeeding.
If you know you won't be able to reach him (probably a good stick), the faster you head back down to grab speed, the better because he has won the rope. Try again, because everything came back like at the beginning: slow and con right above you (only a little closer)

[3]If you are caught with speed
, you have the choice of either 2 situation's countermeasures and possibly be the one forcing him to actually get BnZied himself.

Its all about faking you don't have the E to extend your arm and reach him when hes not expecting it. Climb when he climbs, only you do it effortlessly.

At least that's what I do in the Jug. P51s should be the one of the best at defending against BnZs though.

I'm not good at explaining that kind of stuff, so forgive me if its all not very clear.  :pray

 :salute
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:50:15 PM by Lepape2 »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 10:07:42 PM »
Last thing I'll add:

In the MA and while flying the Jug, 7,000 feet Above Ground Level is the magic altitude.  From that altitude, you're about 5 seconds away from showing 500 mph IAS and running.  Most of the time in the MA fight, its tough to maintain this much of a buffer, but that's the minimum altitude necessary for a escape dive.
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