Author Topic: Squad & Country  (Read 8582 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2010, 10:44:46 PM »
Exactly, they forced them to fight. which means those that were being attack were once trying to get away, which they couldnt so they had to fight.

They forced the Luftwaffe to fight by making them take off and intercept the bombers so the Allied fighters can then engage.  It was basically an air war of attrition, by destroying the Luftwaffe, the bombers had an easier time.  The same strategy was employed in the Pacific but it was more for keeping the logistical sea supply lanes open.  

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2010, 12:23:39 AM »
It's really very simple and completely understandable; the war winners kill a furball by taking down a base because they think there's a conflict for that base so they fly in and destroy it to help their country advance.  They aren't trying to be griefers, just good countrymen because that's their mentality.

Furthermore, this is so understandable that nearly every furball is going to be disrupted in this way.  If I want to go buff hunting I just look for the biggest furball on the map and I'll always find buffs.  Always.  So, if you want "competition" it's already there.  Grab a little alt and go meet them.

I'm in a one man "squad" so I'm rarely the beneficiary of someone to clear my six or even odds in my favor.  If I were in an actual squad with more people than just me I can assure you we'd be flying into the hoards to bust them up.  But the established squads?  No... we'll just come to the BBs and whine because the "war winners" ruined our fun or attacked a base no one was defending and complain that there's no competition.  Man up and go defend then.  I don't know how often I'm a lone or one of only a few defenders.  In fact, I spend much more time in-game in a defensive rather than an offensive position.  Again, if you really wanted competition it's there.

Everyone can coexist and everyone can have fun at the same time.  I know I do all by myself and I play the same game each of you do and I don't have to resort to ratting out missions to do it.  Oh, and by and large I s*ck.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 12:27:53 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline oTRALFZo

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2010, 03:51:51 AM »
Furballers vs. Basetakers..whichever game you play, there are very different dynamics that play into each.

When you play to furball, you play to kill. You look for the biggest darbar out there and you plan what your attack is going to be. The furball game is mostly dominated by guys that have playing this game for years on end and have become very good at it. Of course in the furball game, you get ganged, HOd, rammed or picked, but the guy that knows this and avoids those situations in a fight and comes out victorious tends to gain some form of respect from his adversaries.

When you play for the real estate game, your goal is make those fields shine in green as soon as possible with whatever it takes to do so. Here also, your plans are very easily thwarted if you get any sort of opposition from the red guys. To play the basetake game, you will loose most of the time if you go in playing fair, so you take down hangers, you HO that guy going after your goon, you de-ack the base so you can vulch. All of which is really frowned upon by EVERYONE. The real estate game is usually dominated by the new subscribers, because lets face it..they wouldn't really stand much of any chance of any sort of victory or sense of accomplishment in this game.
I think what really gets me is the guys that have been playing for years and years here that stay in the phase of "winning the war" mode. You would think the concept of a never ending war with the only perk of having 25 points in each category would bore them to death by now..but obviously it hasn't but hey...its their money.

Bottom line..furballers need base takers. Base takers need furballers. Having both play in the same area provides a healthy competitiveness that we need to keep our interests up and keep us logging in.
My only hopes is that when people play this game, that they should sometimes think if what they are doing would upset them if they were in the same situation. If so..then why are YOU doing it?
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Offline kcfarris

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2010, 04:47:42 AM »
Quote
There is absolutely nothing wrong with squads spreading out over multiple countries.  Anyone giving them any problems with doing so are the griefers.
Okie dokie  :uhoh :bolt:

Offline Bronk

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2010, 05:13:18 AM »


Bottom line..furballers need base takers.
They do not.
See Rule #4

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2010, 06:25:30 AM »
Furballers vs. Basetakers..whichever game you play, there are very different dynamics that play into each.
youre forgetting the Historics also
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Offline ACE

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2010, 06:45:06 AM »
youre forgetting the Historics also
Exactly.



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Offline mjsmoke

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2010, 11:00:59 AM »
Quote from: BaldEagl
It's really very simple and completely understandable; the war winners kill a furball by taking down a base because they think there's a conflict for that base so they fly in and destroy it to help their country advance.  They aren't trying to be griefers, just good countrymen because that's their mentality.

Furthermore, this is so understandable that nearly every furball is going to be disrupted in this way.  If I want to go buff hunting I just look for the biggest furball on the map and I'll always find buffs.  Always.  So, if you want "competition" it's already there.  Grab a little alt and go meet them.

I'm in a one man "squad" so I'm rarely the beneficiary of someone to clear my six or even odds in my favor.  If I were in an actual squad with more people than just me I can assure you we'd be flying into the hoards to bust them up.  But the established squads?  No... we'll just come to the BBs and whine because the "war winners" ruined our fun or attacked a base no one was defending and complain that there's no competition.  Man up and go defend then.  I don't know how often I'm a lone or one of only a few defenders.  In fact, I spend much more time in-game in a defensive rather than an offensive position.  Again, if you really wanted competition it's there.

Everyone can coexist and everyone can have fun at the same time.  I know I do all by myself and I play the same game each of you do and I don't have to resort to ratting out missions to do it.  Oh, and by and large I s*ck.
Very well said! :salute

Quote
There is absolutely nothing wrong with squads spreading out over multiple countries.  Anyone giving them any problems with doing so are the griefers.
Seems this was the simple answer that kcfarris was looking for!?!? :aok
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 11:05:47 AM by mjsmoke »

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2010, 12:23:21 PM »

Look at from the view point of TW9 if you may (player Z). Player X found a way to disrupt player Z's preference in game play. Player X called out of course, and did get accomplices, but the end result is the disruption of player Z's ideal.


The catch 22 of your post I originally quoted is that there is currently no game mechanic available for TW9 to disrupt the game play of those who intentionally disrupt his. Let’s pose a hypothetical there are 4 of each on each side. 4 “TW9’s”; and 4 “others”. Caught in the middle unspoken are the players who make enough to show a full bar of radar in the sector on the map in question. That sounds like 20+ players minimum; if I understand the map correctly. Now the “others” think that group of possibly 20 players could be better used attacking / defending a base somewhere else on the map. Those “others” have it in their ability to disrupt the conflict in question with or without help. Possibly they ask for help, possibly they don’t. Either way those 4 (on the same country, acting of their own accord regardless to objection) effected the game play of 4 (minimum) of their country-mates.

What a bunch of nonsense. I can't say it NEVER happens, but cases where people level fields in order to make the furballers go away are maybe one in a hundred, if that. Maybe more like one in a thousand. The other 999 times they're not out to do anything but take the base - even if they don't try to take the base the way you think bases ought to be taken.

I can say that I've never, and I mean never, joined a posted mission and had the person leading it say "Okay, let's go ruin that furball so those guys will have to help take bases." Never. Not rarely, never. It's always a plan to take a base. Maybe some individuals say that, but not guys running missions.

On the other hand, 100% of people ratting out missions are doing it just to sabotage other players on the same side.

I have many, many times either said or heard someone in the squad say "Let's just leave that alone and attack somewhere else, it's nothing but an endless furball that's been going on there for 2 days."

I have some great 1-1 or 2-2 fights that I stumble into randomly, but much bigger than that the furballs tend to become exactly like what ardy describes. Usually they're not dominated by veteran players, they're dominated by the people who fight in packs of ten or more, never get more than 5k from the rest of their huge horde, and heroically jump, ten at a time, on any lone pilot on the other side who dares to come out of his side's horde. Maybe that's not a problem for the 1% of veterans with the skill to beat those odds, but it is for average players. Not clueless idiots, average players, the ones who've been playing more than six months and less than five years, the ones who make up the majority of the player base.

It forces average players into timid play, not because they have no chance of getting kills against other average players, but because they have no chance of getting kills or even learning anything if they take one step out of the cover of their own horde and get devoured by the piranhas. If they want to do anything but get massacred, they have to either (a) fly timidly like everyone else and compete with 10 other guys for each kill, (b) leave the "furball" and hope to find a 1-1 somewhere else on the map, or (c) have something happen that motivates all the players in both hordes to quit flying like milksops and actually get in there and fight.


That's why without exception, and by a long shot, the best large fights I've had have been base take attempts, either defending or attacking.

So yes, the furballers do need the base takers, because when a base is threatened it forces both the attackers and the defenders to roll up their sleeves and actually get in close with the enemy and fight if they want to keep the base, as opposed to dawdling around in your horde waiting for some poor schmuck on the other side to leave his horde. Sure, the veteran players don't need that motivation, but they're as small a portion of furballers as they are of war winners, and the other 49 people in the "furball" do need something to motivate them to actually fight. It's not making anyone help take bases, it's improving the intensity of the fight.

I suspect that's why the numbers in the WW1 arenas dropped to almost nothing once the novelty wore off. It's why I never go in there. I like the planes, but with no larger goal to focus on the action is mind-numbingly boring.

And on the other hand, if someone gets a horde mission up to go level and capture a base with no opposition, what do you furballers care? It's not affecting you at all, because if it's without opposition, it can't be anywhere near your big furball. Aren't they doing exactly what you want them to do, leaving your precious furball alone? So why is it necessary to blow their mission, unless you just want to be obnoxious? You've just gotten to the point where you can rationalize any degree of rude and obnoxious behavior by telling yourself that those guys don't deserve any consideration because they aren't playing the game right like you are.

Offline Nwbie

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2010, 01:03:28 PM »
I've always found it interesting how the definition of fur-balling is considered.
If you are circling a field waiting for suckers to up and get to a couple thousand feet below you...that is not fur-balling..
If you are encroaching on the base that the enemies are upping from and killing the ack so you can vulch... not fur-balling
If you are meeting halfway at similar altitudes and joining in the fight...not picking off the ones going into a fight...that is fur-balling
Not many in this game understand that...
If you are vulching... I'm helping take down your base..cuz all you are  -  are dweebs..not furballers...


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Offline crazierthanu

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2010, 01:55:47 PM »
youre forgetting the Historics also
"Historics" of what? Were all playing on a miniature continents with an equally available plane set, and no nationalistic limitations resources or manpower. And your talking about keeping things historic?
If this game were as historic as some claim it should be there would be such an unprofitably small audience this game probably wouldn't even exist.  :rolleyes:
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Offline TW9

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2010, 02:02:16 PM »
I've always found it interesting how the definition of fur-balling is considered.
If you are circling a field waiting for suckers to up and get to a couple thousand feet below you...that is not fur-balling..
If you are encroaching on the base that the enemies are upping from and killing the ack so you can vulch... not fur-balling
If you are meeting halfway at similar altitudes and joining in the fight...not picking off the ones going into a fight...that is fur-balling
Not many in this game understand that...
If you are vulching... I'm helping take down your base..cuz all you are  -  are dweebs..not furballers...


NwBie

when i speak of furballing its in reference to any fight between bases. doesnt have to be co-alt or anything. can be picks or straight up fights. its all furballing.. i dont go into a furball expecting to be co-alt with everybody. especially if i just got done getting down on the deck with someone. someone is eventually going to come in higher than i am and probably pick me. its just how it is in the furball. doesnt make it not one.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 02:06:28 PM by TW9 »
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2010, 03:11:49 PM »
Furballers vs. Basetakers..whichever game you play, there are very different dynamics that play into each.

When you play to furball, you play to kill. You look for the biggest darbar out there and you plan what your attack is going to be. The furball game is mostly dominated by guys that have playing this game for years on end and have become very good at it. Of course in the furball game, you get ganged, HOd, rammed or picked, but the guy that knows this and avoids those situations in a fight and comes out victorious tends to gain some form of respect from his adversaries.

When you play for the real estate game, your goal is make those fields shine in green as soon as possible with whatever it takes to do so. Here also, your plans are very easily thwarted if you get any sort of opposition from the red guys. To play the basetake game, you will loose most of the time if you go in playing fair, so you take down hangers, you HO that guy going after your goon, you de-ack the base so you can vulch. All of which is really frowned upon by EVERYONE. The real estate game is usually dominated by the new subscribers, because lets face it..they wouldn't really stand much of any chance of any sort of victory or sense of accomplishment in this game.
I think what really gets me is the guys that have been playing for years and years here that stay in the phase of "winning the war" mode. You would think the concept of a never ending war with the only perk of having 25 points in each category would bore them to death by now..but obviously it hasn't but hey...its their money.

Bottom line..furballers need base takers. Base takers need furballers. Having both play in the same area provides a healthy competitiveness that we need to keep our interests up and keep us logging in.
My only hopes is that when people play this game, that they should sometimes think if what they are doing would upset them if they were in the same situation. If so..then why are YOU doing it?

I agree completely with your assessment.  +2

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2010, 04:08:06 PM »
The furball game is mostly dominated by guys that have playing this game for years on end and have become very good at it.

Nonsense. There aren't enough of those players to dominate, not the way you, grizz, et al define veterans. They can beat the other furballers, but 95% of the furballers aren't top sticks, so usually the people you're fighting are either newbies or players with some experience, not 5+ year vets. The hordes of newbies and mid-vets (for lack of a better term) are what dominate the furball. Non-elite players get killed a lot more by players of moderate skills than by elite players, just because there are so many more of the former.

If you're an old-timer with uber skills you probably don't see that because they don't dominate you. But your perspective is very different from the vast majority of players.

When you play for the real estate game, your goal is make those fields shine in green as soon as possible with whatever it takes to do so. Here also, your plans are very easily thwarted if you get any sort of opposition from the red guys.

Nonsense. It's about dictating the terms of the fight and getting an early advantage. The truth is they are easily thwarted if there are twice as many defenders who've had 10 minutes to prepare knowing exactly where you're coming from and what planes you're in.

To play the basetake game, you will loose most of the time if you go in playing fair, so you take down hangers, you HO that guy going after your goon, you de-ack the base so you can vulch. All of which is really frowned upon by EVERYONE.

Nonsense. There are thousands of players who don't frown on taking down hangers, and plenty of "furballers" who are only too happy to vulch when they get the chance.

The real estate game is usually dominated by the new subscribers, because lets face it..they wouldn't really stand much of any chance of any sort of victory or sense of accomplishment in this game.

Biggest nonsense of all.

One, new subscribers don't know how to capture bases any more than they know how to dogfight, and it may even be harder for them to take bases, not beause taking bases is harder to do but because the goals and methods are unique to this game whereas ACM and other fighter skills are more apt to transfer from other, similar games.

Two, most of the people doing the things you denigrate are demonstrably not new players. Just look at the roster. I guarantee if you see one guy in Lancs knocking down all the plane hangers at a medium field in two passes, you are NOT looking at a new and inexperienced player.

Three, the fact that a player of moderate skills can't compete at all with grizz or Steve does not mean they can't get kills. Most of the players they meet will not be grizz and Steve, and they stand a good chance of beating them. They are probably less skilled than they would be if they devoted all their time to fighters, but less skilled is a LONG way from no chance. Of course an uber vet can't see that difference, because moderately skilled and unskilled players are equally easy prey for them. Again, look at the roster sometime before talking smack with no basis whatsoever in fact. Most of the guys you see taking down hangers reliably have average fighter scores or better, and some a LOT better.

(Yes, I know score is a bad way to judge skill. But a guy who gets a fair amount of kills is by definition not a guy who only takes bases because he has no prayer of getting fighter kills.)

Offline Bear76

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Re: Squad & Country
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2010, 04:21:37 PM »
Someone's wound a little too tight.