50 cal vs. Wirbelwind Damage Model

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The occupants of any open topped vehicles should be easily wounded or killed by ANY machine gun bullets that come in through the open top. Common sense should tell you that once a machine gun bullet enters the open top of an armored vehicle the bullet will ricochet wildly inside the turret.

[kvuo75]

the turret is one thing... Exploding the entire vehicle is another..

I was killed by 50 cal MG only the other day, by a spit9 a couple weeks ago..

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285770.0.html


someone there mentions the 50bmg should actually in reality penetrate the armor, if that is the case, then maybe we've been enjoying too-tough osties and wirbs for years

[Masherbrum]

the turret is one thing... Exploding the entire vehicle is another..

I was killed by 50 cal MG only the other day, by a spit9 a couple weeks ago..

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285770.0.html


someone there mentions the 50bmg should actually in reality penetrate the armor, if that is the case, then maybe we've been enjoying too-tough osties and wirbs for years

The "blowing up" would be the crew perishing a cartoon death from "ricochet syndrome".    

[waystin2]

I understand the .50 cal penetration argument.  Bear in mind that we are talking about a Panzer IV chassis with a different turret.  That means that the Panzer IV would also be vulnerable to machine gun fire.  I would like to see more info before I sit one side of the fence or the other.  All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed.  Something has changed.

[E25280]

I understand the .50 cal penetration argument.  Bear in mind that we are talking about a Panzer IV chassis with a different turret.  That means that the Panzer IV would also be vulnerable to machine gun fire.  I would like to see more info before I sit one side of the fence or the other.  All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed.  Something has changed.

I don't think we are talking penetration.  It's the different turret that makes all the difference between killing a WW or Osti vs. a PzkwIV.  The closed-top turret of the IV prevents any rounds from entering the crew compartment.  There is no barrier between open sky and the driver's compartement of a WW or Osti.  So bullets from above could theoretically even kill the driver and hull gunner on a WW or Osti, whereas it would not be possible on a IV.

Don't get me wrong, we've seen film of a guy in an M16 killing IVs outright by parking behind him at point blank range . . . but that's a bit of a different situation and a boatload of impacts vs. what you are getting from a typical strafing run from an aircraft.

[kvuo75]

  All I do know is that previously the WW was able to take sustained bullet and HE cannon fire for quite some time before being destroyed.  Something has changed.

that's my exact thoughts also.. used to be able to sit turreted for hours, unless someone came along in a tank, or brought a bomb or il2/hurrid..  mosquitos/110's would spend 5 minutes taking out tracks, but you would survive quite a while..

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

If only your turret is damaged, then you, the driver, were not hit. It works just like a plane, if you kill the person, the vehicle or plane explodes.

[321BAR]

I must have +50 kills on WW just by taking out their turret with my .50 cal p-47.

forget that i had 55 rounds left in only two of my P51Ds guns and i strafed a WW to death the other day... something is wrong with the WW

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

When you take out an armored vehicle with guns smaller than 37MM, you have killed the driver. The explosion is just how the game shows a dead driver.

Any open topped vehicle should be very vulnerable to machine gun fire. An open turret vehicle has nothing to protect the occupants from machine gun fire except air. Air is a lousy armor.

[waystin2]

Double post-darn bbs

[waystin2]

When you take out an armored vehicle with guns smaller than 37MM, you have killed the driver. The explosion is just how the game shows a dead driver.

Any open topped vehicle should be very vulnerable to machine gun fire. An open turret vehicle has nothing to protect the occupants from machine gun fire except air. Air is a lousy armor.

There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- ) access to the driver.  I am left wondering how .50 cals can kill the driver in 1-2 passes with only the drivers slit as direct access to his position.  My question is when did HTC change this modeling and was it intentional?  It certainly was never part of the model before.  Please understand here that you are not dealing with a new driver to this vehicle.  I have thousands of kills, and hundreds of sorties since it's inclusion into the AH Inventory. I am wishing for a fix back to original damage modeling or an official announcement that it has been changed by HTC.  Until such a time, I consider it as something wrong with the game.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

For as long as I can remember, HTC has coded the death of the driver/pilot as instant explosive destruction of the vehicle/plane.

If drivers/operators of open top vehicles are now being killed by machine gun fire and they were not before, I'd say there was previously a game problem, and it has been fixed. If they are not easily killed when machine gun fire strikes the open top turret, they certainly should be.

If it is a bug, HTC will fix it quickly, if you provide evidence.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- ) access to the driver.  I am left wondering how .50 cals can kill the driver in 1-2 passes with only the drivers slit as direct access to his position.  My question is when did HTC change this modeling and was it intentional?  It certainly was never part of the model before.  Please understand here that you are not dealing with a new driver to this vehicle.  I have thousands of kills, and hundreds of sorties since it's inclusion into the AH Inventory. I am wishing for a fix back to original damage modeling or an official announcement that it has been changed by HTC.  Until such a time, I consider it as something wrong with the game.

When you, the player, jump to the gun, you, the player, become vulnerable to machine gun fire, as it should be. Therefore, if machine gun fire kills you, the player, while you man the gun, and the vehicle explodes, sending you to the tower, then things are as they should be. If you, the player, are manning the gun, what happens to the driver shouldn't matter. The only thing that should matter is what happens to the occupant of the position you are manning when the damage is done.

If you are easily killed by machine gun fire while actually in the driver's position, and "buttoned up", then there is a problem.

[Bronk]

There is no doubt that the three crew in the turret are extremely vulnerable, however there is no open air (lousy armor- ) access to the driver.  

Erm yes there is. The turret is OPEN to the rest of the occupant compartment. How do you think they facilitated movement of ammo from hull to turret?

[waystin2]

When you, the player, jump to the gun, you, the player, become vulnerable to machine gun fire, as it should be. Therefore, if machine gun fire kills you, the player, while you man the gun, and the vehicle explodes, sending you to the tower, then things are as they should be. If you, the player, are manning the gun, what happens to the driver shouldn't matter. The only thing that should matter is what happens to the occupant of the position you are manning when the damage is done.

I perceive this as your opinion and not necessarily HTC's.  I respect and understand your insight, but this is a whole new can of worms that I would not want to open.  Imagine being killed in a tank while in the commanders position at your machinegun, being killed in your bomber or PT boat while in a gunners position ...  What a gripe fest it would cause.  Thank you for the mention that it may be a bug, I am wondering if I put this into the wrong forum.