Author Topic: Stab change  (Read 4265 times)

Offline hitech

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2010, 01:31:19 PM »
Are you sure the elevator needs a down force, or just less up force.

HiTech

Offline FLS

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2010, 04:11:37 PM »
Are you sure the elevator needs a down force, or just less up force.

HiTech

This is getting confusing. Elevator up to push the tail down to increase the AoA. I'm calling this a down force on the tailplane.

It also seems that with one side missing there would be less torque on the tailplane from the spiral slipstream so the additional torque from the unbalanced tailplane would be  mitigated to a degree depending on speed.

I understand Mace's point about torque on the attachment, I just assumed it would be overbuilt in anticipation of battle damage but I don't know enough about the general construction practice and since we don't have a particular aircraft in mind that might vary with the model.

Offline OOZ662

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2010, 08:23:08 AM »
From my one time experiencing this (Bf-110C lost its left H.Stab), the maneuverability of the aircraft was the same (maybe slightly better) but its stability was terrible. Once I finally recovered from the 110's signature flat spin, I actually managed to maneuver in and kill the player who wounded me, but in stressing the flight path to make the shot I nearly plummeted sideways into the ground right behind him.
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2010, 05:54:05 PM »
US Planes were designed to a (don't quote me) 8G wheras brits were 6G, no idea on the germans or japanese.  The tailplane and spar were designed to carry loads, like a bridge, which correspond to the physical weight they must bear.  If you lose half of the load bearing surface area, would the weight and forces not transmit to the only other load bearing surface, the other half.  I just don't thin you could dive a plane and pull out without ripping the entire apendage off. 
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Offline save

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2010, 06:02:08 PM »
At 4G you start losing your color eyesight (my IRL experience) at 6G prolonged you will black without G-suit.
My aerobatic experience is very limited to aerobatic gliders ( my ultralight wont me allow me to do any aerobatic at all)

I think 8G would leave most pilot unconscious without G-suit in a snap

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Offline dirtdart

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2010, 06:04:14 PM »
I don't have those experiences Save, just looking at it from an Engineering standpoint.  Duly noted BTW.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2010, 06:38:49 PM »
Dirtdart by your logic if a sailboat has two sails and you lower one, then the remaining sail has twice the load on it. You're assuming that half the elevator could somehow generate twice the force it produces when there is a full elevator and that it's not built to sustain more than the max force it can produce.

Offline dirtdart

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2010, 06:51:09 PM »
Sailboat is a bad comparison.  The single mast is designed to hold the load of two sails, individually or together as a load bearing structure.  The tailplane of an airplane carry a load as it stabilizes the plane as it cruises through the air.  Depending on trim and CG settings, speed, et al... the tailplane as one long unit carries the burden.  It takes let say 100 lbs of downforce to push the nose up, well if I make the same input requirement with one surface, as opposed to two, because of the reduction in area, the input must be greater.  So it would take a bit more than 100 lbs.  I think I am going to have to do some research.  

This discussion is going to end up having me break out some very old dusty books....lol.   :aok
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Offline FLS

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2010, 07:33:34 PM »
Think of the two sails as the tailplane/elevators and the fuselage as the mast.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2010, 08:22:28 PM »
In order for the plane to sustain a given turn, say 6g, a certain download on the tail is required.  This download is spread over the entire surface of the complete horizontal tail.  Now, take away half the horizontal tail and that 1/2 surface area must now generate all of the download if the pilot's going to sustain a 6g turn.  That means that 1/2 the surface must generate twice it's original load in order to make up for the loss of 1/2 of the total surface area.  The sailboat idea is looking at the same thing but from a different perspective.  Take away half the surface and 1/2 of the power is produced, i.e., the boat will slow down.  To sustain the same speed the remaining sail must be retrimmed to generate twice it's original load.  Of course there are big limits to this.  Can the remaining horizontal tail surface have enough elevator travel and stall margin to generate twice it's original load?  Probably not.  Can the remaining sail be trimmed to produce twice the load it was originally?  Probably not.  This is grossly oversimplified since jibs and mailsails don't generate the same power but I think you get my point.

Also, the distribution of the load is very different.  Think of a complete horizontal tail as a teeter totter board with the fuselage/horizontal tail joint represented by the pivot.  Lift up equally on both ends of the board and board will not pivot and the load at the pivot point is directly vertical.  Now, cutoff one end of the board and lift the other end and it'll pivot because there's no counterbalancing load on the missing end.  That's the torque I'm talking about that is transmitted through the fuselage/tail joint.  That joint isn't designed to counteract torque, it's primarily designed to carry normal vertical loads.  Subject a joint to stresses it's not designed to handle and it'll fail.

Now, HiTech is hinting that there is not an increasing load on the tail for greater G, it could actually be a decreasing load (less upforce).  I don't see this but then, like I said before, I don't have a way to model it.  From a pilot's perspective there is a measurement that looks at this called stick-force-per-G.  In other words, it's how much rearward force the pilot must place on the stick in order to generate greater than 1G.  That force must increase for every additional G.  Say 2lbs for 2g, 4 lbs for 3g, 7 lbs for 4g, 10 lbs for 5g and 15 lbs for 6g.  That's called a positive gradient and that's what you want because it means the pilot must pull harder for every additional G and it gives the pilot a positive sense of what the airplane is doing.  A negative gradient where stick-force-per-G declines for greater G is a very bad thing and any fighter that exhibited would probably not be considered safe and would be assigned a PartI deficiency and rejected because it would be very easy to inadvertantly stall or overstress.  Note:  I'm talking about subsonic planes here, strange things can happen in the trans-sonic region including reduction in stick-force-per-G.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 08:41:35 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline Gr8pape

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2010, 09:11:24 PM »
Wow a post with some actual intelligence to it.

My experience when I have lost the control surface of one elevator AoA suffered greatly, while when I lost the the whole elevator-stabilizer it wasn't nearly as bad with just the control surface missing, but it still wasn't as good as having the full stabilizer. There are some good thoughts on the subject in this thread though, I can see both sides of the debate as logical.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2010, 10:00:54 PM »
It takes let say 100 lbs of downforce to push the nose up, well if I make the same input requirement with one surface, as opposed to two, because of the reduction in area, the input must be greater.  So it would take a bit more than 100 lbs.  I think I am going to have to do some research.  

This discussion is going to end up having me break out some very old dusty books....lol.   :aok
I think what HiTech was saying is that you don't need 100 lbs of downforce to push the nose up, because the rear stabs are lift surfaces that keep the tail up.  To pitch the nose up, then, you need to decrease the lift on the tail, not provide a downforce.

This is why, in the old system where both stabs fell off simultaneously, the plane pitches UP, not noses down.

This is easier to do when an entire stab is missing rather than just the elevator, hence the similar ability to lift the nose i.e. turn when one stab is missing entirely.

Now then, it should also stand to reason that if you try to push the nose down, there should be reduced ability, because of less overall lift that can be generated by the single stab.
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Offline whiteman

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2010, 12:36:05 AM »
Someone needs to send Big123 to this post, i was missing my left Horizontal Stab in a f4u but was able to almost turn as tight as normal and with the flaps still able to out turn a LA7 and Yak on the deck like it wasn't even missing. He called Shenanigans and i thought it was odd but did notice a bit of loss in lift and more pronounced as i got faster but still able to fight if i had too.

Offline 4deck

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2010, 01:02:04 AM »
Im lost, WTF is a force vector displayer. Far out name though.
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Offline OOZ662

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Re: Stab change
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2010, 01:45:48 AM »
Im lost, WTF is a force vector displayer. Far out name though.

It's a program that uses the Aces High physics model to draw vectors (lines/rays of varying length) off the body of the aircraft to show what forces are being applied in what direction to the various parts of the airframe under certain situations.
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