Author Topic: "that" apache video  (Read 3767 times)

Offline gyrene81

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2010, 11:34:00 AM »
No wonder the terrorists are winning this war.
You are correct...because you (the supposedly civilized public) demand that the military forces be polite while they pick up the body parts of innocent women and children, or even comrades whose bodies have been mutilated by those nice people who hide among the civilian population killing without losing a wink of sleep.

Maybe you should watch some of the older videos of a few journalists and soldiers some terrorists kidnapped...they were very nice to them.

Here is an idea...fly to Bagdad with your family and go to one of the markets with some signs telling the bad guys to come out of hiding and stop killing innocent people...maybe then we can have a civilized war.
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Offline Kazaa

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2010, 11:36:17 AM »
Civilised people find ways not to fight wars.



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Offline Die Hard

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2010, 11:36:57 AM »
Apparently, you don't know what a RPG looks like.

Even if you are right, They put themselves in an obviously exceedingly risky situation and paid a high price for it.  How could you be hanging out a hundred yards from soldiers who have been shooting it out with insurgents with some of your group holding aks and rpgs and not expect to call interest?   They had to know the Apache was there and they are leaning around the corner taking pics?  How are the soldiers to know the intent?  Why would they think anything other than a bunch of insurgents messing around endangering the troops?   They made bad choices and paid for it.  The Apache crew could have used greater restraint but I'm not going to second guess them. 

Where do you get "a hundred yards" from? It took several seconds from the AH-64's gunfire started until the shell arrived on target. That tells me that the Apaches were orbiting a mile away as they usually do. The civilians were walking down the street casually holding their two weapons. Would they do that if there were gunships hovering within sight or ear-shot? Would they do that if they were insurgents in a battle zone? Would the experienced Reuters journalists willingly be anywhere near insurgents if they thought they were in a battle zone with gunships hovering above?

No.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2010, 11:41:17 AM »
You are correct...because you (the supposedly civilized public) demand that the military forces be polite while they pick up the body parts of innocent women and children, or even comrades whose bodies have been mutilated by those nice people who hide among the civilian population killing without losing a wink of sleep.

Maybe they wouldn't have to pick up so many body parts of women and children if they just stopped shooting at them. You'll notice the two wounded children that had to be carried away in that video was shot up by US 30 mm cannon fire.

It is very easy to identify the enemy: The enemy shoots at you.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2010, 11:47:12 AM »
Maybe they wouldn't have to pick up so many body parts of women and children if they just stopped shooting at them. You'll notice the two wounded children that had to be carried away in that video was shot up by US 30 mm cannon fire.
I may be reading this wrong but...are you saying that is more objectionable than 50 women and children being blown to shreds while they shop for food by a car bomb? Or is just reading about the 20 people killed while praying in a mosque by a suicide bomber more justifiable...I mean, you're not there so you have nothing to worry about...right?

It is very easy to identify the enemy: The enemy shoots at you.
Really? You're sure about that...maybe you should get all of the facts before you try speaking with any authority.
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2010, 11:47:35 AM »
If the rules of engagement says you can slaughter civilians does that make it right?

I'll quote it for you if you choose not to think.

"Wikileaks, the website devoted to publishing classified documents on the Internet, made a splash today with a video claiming to show that the U.S. military "murdered" a Reuters cameraman and other Iraqi "civilians" in Baghdad on July 12, 2007. But a careful watching of the video shows that the U.S. helicopter gun crews that attacked a group of armed men in the then Mahdi Army stronghold of New Baghdad was anything but "Collateral Murder," as Wikileaks describes the incident.

There are a couple of things to note in the video. First, Wikileaks characterizes the attack as the U.S. military casually gunning down Iraqis who were innocently gathering on the streets of New Baghdad. But the video begins somewhat abruptly, with a UAV starting to track a group of Iraqi males gathering on the streets. The voice of a U.S. officer is captured in mid-sentence. It would be nice to know what happened before Wikileaks decided to begin the video. The U.S. military claimed the Iraqis were killed after a gun battle with U.S. and Iraqi security forces. It is unclear if any of that was captured on the strike footage. Here is what the U.S. military had to say about the engagement in a July 2007 press release:

    "Soldiers of 1st Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, and the 2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment, both operating in eastern Baghdad under the 2nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, along with their Iraqi counterparts from the 1st Battalion, 4th Brigade, 1st Division National Police, were conducting a coordinated raid as part of a planned operation when they were attacked by small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. Coalition Forces returned fire and called in attack aviation reinforcement."    

There is nothing in that video that is inconsistent with the military's report. What you see is the air weapons team engaging armed men.

Second, note how empty the streets are in the video. The only people visible on the streets are the armed men and the accompanying Reuters cameramen. This is a very good indicator that there was a battle going on in the vicinity. Civilians smartly clear the streets during a gunfight.

Third, several of the men are clearly armed with assault rifles; one appears to have an RPG. Wikileaks purposely chooses not to identify them, but instead focuses on the Reuters cameraman. Why?

Fourth, there is no indication that the U.S. military weapons crew that fired on this group of armed men violated the military's Rules of Engagement. Ironically, Wikileaks published the military's Rules of Engagement from 2007, which you can read here. What you do see in the video is troops working to identify targets and confirm they were armed before engaging. Once the engagement began, the U.S. troops ruthlessly hunted their prey.

Fifth, critics will undoubtedly be up in arms over the attack on that black van you see that moves in to evacuate the wounded; but it is not a marked ambulance, nor is such a vehicle on the "Protected Collateral Objects" listed in the Rules of Engagement. The van, which was coming to the aid of the fighters, was fair game, even if the men who exited the van weren't armed.

Sixth, Wikileaks' claim that the U.S. military's decision to pass the two children inside the van to the Iraqi police for treatment at an Iraqi hospital threatened their lives is unsubstantiated. We do not know the medical assessment of the two Iraqi children wounded in the airstrike. We don't even know if the children were killed in the attack, although you can be sure that if they were Wikileaks would have touted this. (And who drives their kids into the middle of a war zone anyway?) Having been at attacks where Iraqis have ben killed and wounded, I can say I understand a little about the process that is used to determine if wounded Iraqis are transported to a U.S. hospital. The person has to be considered to have a life-threatening situation or in danger of losing a vital function (eyesight, etc.). Yet, even though the threshold to transfer Iraqis to U.S. military hospitals is high, I have repeatedly seen U.S. personnel err on the side of caution and transport wounded who probably should not have been sent to a U.S. hospital.

Baghdad in July 2007 was a very violent place, and the neighborhoods of Sadr City and New Baghdad were breeding grounds for the Mahdi Army and associated Iranian-backed Shia terror groups. The city was a war zone. To describe the attack you see in the video as "murder" is a sensationalist gimmick that succeeded in driving tons of media attention and traffic to Wikileaks' website."

Not for nothing, a lot of Wikileaks stuff needs to be aired, but to truncate 2/3 of the video footage for a specific spin - is disingenuous and flies in the face of what the site was founded for.


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Offline Jappa52

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2010, 11:49:44 AM »
Seriously, who would think it would be a good idea to go into a war zone surrounded by people holding weapons that look just like one sides combatants? Carrying a camera with a telephoto lens and pointing it at American troops while their support choppers fly overhead? ffs
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Offline Stoney

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2010, 12:01:23 PM »
Your reaction tells me that you think our troops shouldn't be better than the terrorists.

When you say "our" troops, what exactly do you mean by that?

Classic example of poor target identification and an itchy trigger finger.  That said, watching the video out of context means we can shake our heads and appreciate the tragedy of it, but shouldn't pass judgment.  Those guys get thrust into impossible situations every day and 95% of the time, excel.  They should be applauded for that daily, but mostly just get called out for their mistakes.  That's unfortunate.
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Offline FYB

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2010, 12:06:40 PM »
Didn't say anything. Sorry to post.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 12:09:26 PM by FYB »
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2010, 12:13:12 PM »
Where do you get "a hundred yards" from? It took several seconds from the AH-64's gunfire started until the shell arrived on target. That tells me that the Apaches were orbiting a mile away as they usually do.

Did you happen to notice the ground units?  Is it possible the rest of us might be talking about their proximity to them?  Did you see the photographers photo of the us troops taken from his camera?  They were clearly within 1-2 blocks of the troops.

The Apaches were orbiting a mile away?  Please feel free to share your direct experience with Apaches.  As with the rest of this, you are just blathering about stuff you don't know.  You would be better off trying to keep an open mind and look at the evidence in a fair and honest manner.  ASSuming things to fit your agenda does little to substantiate it.

The civilians were walking down the street casually holding their two weapons. Would they do that if there were gunships hovering within sight or ear-shot? Would they do that if they were insurgents in a battle zone? Would the experienced Reuters journalists willingly be anywhere near insurgents if they thought they were in a battle zone with gunships hovering above?

No.

If the "civilians" are milling about an active combat area just around a corner with assault riffles and RPG's, it's safe to assume they voluntarily gave up their "civilian" status.  It doesn't take much intelligence to know such action is at serious risk.  If you spent much effort, you would see dozens of examples of such "civilians" acting the same way while taking turns at pot shots at soldiers.  I sure would not engage an enemy in such a nonchalant manner but I'm still alive, they are not.

The "experienced Reuters journalist" was 22 and supposed to be covering a weight lifting event.  He clearly made bad decisions that got him killed.   Again and again you assume to know much more than you do and try to analyze situations of which you have no experience in a manner to suit your agenda.  Do yourself a favor and step away from the keyboard until you can approach the matter from a more objective manner.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2010, 12:40:00 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 12:46:10 PM by Skuzzy »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Maverick

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2010, 12:56:00 PM »
No die hard, they are not justifying the troops acting like terrorists. You are simply assuming they are based on incomplete and edited video posted with the intent to provoke your reaction. In short you were played by folks who do that kind of thing all the time. You lack the ability to look with an unbiased attitude at what is presented to you as propaganda and see the manipulation being performed. In that regard the wiki leak thing was perfectly done, it got you to say and think things out of context from a position of total ignorance for the circumstances and all based on incomplete and incorrectly portrayed data. In short, YOU are the one justifying the tactics used by the enemy based on something provided from one of their weapons, their propaganda manipulation. There have been several instances where the insurgents provided civilians a great view of the battle by putting them in front of the insurgents. In that context one can see where or why they would bring kids into an open battle ground, as shields. If they die, inshalah. It's all grist for their manipulation.
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2010, 01:09:51 PM »
Just seeing the video and knowing innocent people died, it's easy to get very upset over the actions.  But  you do have to take the entire situation into effect and I think many here have done that, no reason for me to beat a dead horse.

I think had the language and tone been different, this would have been a significantly different issue.  I'm not saying soldiers need to be worrying about their language in the middle of a battle, but just hypothetically, I don't think this would have been as serious an issue.  I'm not speaking with experience here so take all this with a grain of salt but I can only imagine their attitudes are coping mechanisms developed to deal with the horrors of war.  You cannot be a good soldier if you take a moment and think about each life you take in the middle of a firefight, right?  Adrenaline and aggression is feeding them and they cope with what they have to do however they can to continue doing their job.  No doubt many soldiers use this kind of language or aggression and then come home with PTSD.  They are not inherently bad people, they are people in a wartime environment, and that has to be taken into consideration.

On a bit of a side note it does look a lot like a video game, like scary similar.  I can imagine my friends and I acting in a similar way playing Call of Duty.  I think it would be a interesting study to look at the relationship between wartime behavior and coping mechanisms with how one plays a video game.  But you can't really blame the video games, you have to take into account how soldiers acted pre-video games; you can't say that the attitude shown in the videos is new.  Are video games similar enough to certain war time actions (like this one) where soldiers kind of revert back to the mindset of the video game to deal with the act of actually killing people?  That is a speculative question not a claim, again this isn't based on experience so I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 01:16:30 PM by Jayhawk »
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Offline infowars

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2010, 01:23:17 PM »
It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be.  I heard about this coming out a while ago.

The people on the ground clearly weren't combative so to speak and I'm sure they knew there were two choppers overhead.  You can see a couple of the dudes looking at them.  Hostile forces typically would appears a little more jittery you'd think.

From my point of view if it was still a full on combat zone then I'd say "cool,  good kill" ...  It is not though,  its like trying to rid streets gangs.

I think maybe pilot shouldn't fly combat missions anymore but nothing more serious than that.  Overall it just sucks and we should leave that place all together...
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Offline Mickey1992

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Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2010, 01:28:57 PM »
I find it interesting that an organization such as wikileaks that supposedly fought for an extended period of time to obtain the video, released a version that has been heavily edited.  I will pass judgment when I see the video evidence in its entirety.