Author Topic: D9 guns again. (Read 1627 times)

Vermillion · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »

Sorry Naudet, but your entirely wrong.

Just because the MG131 and MG151/20 have similar muzzle velocities, does not mean they have similar ballistic characteristics. The mass of the round, and the ballistic coefficent play very large roles as well.

If your firing both the MG's and the cannons in a deflection shot, and your hitting with the MG's but not the cannons, its because you are visually cueing off (aiming from) the tracers off the MG's which is exactly NOT how to do it.

Here is a chart from the Fw190A8 handbook, which will show you how very different the ballistic characteristics between the MG131 and the MG151/20 really are.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Naudet · « **Reply #31 on:** April 14, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »

I dont use tracers, they more block view than everything else.

And plz show me a diagramm were both guns MG151 and MG131 are fired at the same distance, best even from same position.
From the data in u sheet u really cant tell that the ballistics of both guns are very diverent, u even can compare em on this data.

Data to compare ballistics best, is a diagramm, showing the flight path of the shells according to same firing angle and distance. As long as both things are different, u cant compare em.
U diagramm provides totaly different distances and firing angles for both guns.

Vermillion · « **Reply #32 on:** April 14, 2001, 04:36:00 PM »

Naudet, that diagram is the actual setup on the aircraft which is what counts. In other words it represents the ballistic flight path of the projectiles as they are used in a Fw190A8 or Fw190D9.

The MG131 is mounted in the nose, while the MG151/20's are mounted in the wingroots, a vertical difference of almost 1.2 meters. Therefore you have to set the convergence (both horizontal and vertical) to a desired point.

The situation you describe in your post does not exist in a Fw190 of any series. The closest example to what you describe is probably a P-38, where all the guns are mounted clustered tightly together in the nose, both the MG's and the 20mm cannon.

Here are the two complete pages from the manual to describe what I am discussing.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-gun-1.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-gun-2.jpg

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Naudet · « **Reply #33 on:** April 17, 2001, 07:21:00 AM »

Vermillion, i know that this doesnt count for the actual situation in the FWs, but it counts for the normal comparison of the ballistic attributes of the 2 guns.

And i actually can compare the diagram above with my AH setting, cause there the convergence for both guns is the same, in the diagram we have different convergences for both gun types.

I would really like to see one with all weapons set to 300 meters or so.

And one last thing, i did some in arena testing now. I tried to shoot anyone down only with the MG151, can u believe that i missed a YAK at 100 yrds, when he showed a really great tgt area to me.

And notes to the power on the other side, my D9 normally falls apart after a max of 3 pings of any pure gun plane.

But i have to put atleast 6 pings of 20 mms into anything around to do major dmg.

I had NIKI cripling my wing with 1 ping from the real bad Type 99 Cannon, but 3 MG151 didnot do more harm than to let the NIKIs fuel run out. Sry but this to me is crap. I just flew "test" sorties the whole morning. the get the same results time and time again, i did stupid HO just to try put the weapons and as always, enemy flew right through bullet stream without dmg. (BTW i totaly ruined any rank or ratio gained before that way).

I am can live with the flight characteristics of the D9 (even when there are a few things i still find funny, but most might be due to my missing experience with certain E statues etc.), but the guns are really nowhere near any accuracy.

Vermillion · « **Reply #34 on:** April 17, 2001, 07:30:00 AM »

Naudet, try to fly the La7 with 2 cannons for a few sorties for comparison purposes. I find the guns in the La7 very similar to the Dora guns.

I havent' flown much this tour due to other commitments, but I did get to fly several Dora sorties in the past couple of days. I made two kills, and I think one assist (or maybe 2), in just a couple of flights.

If I remember right, they're about the only kills I have this tour due to a really bad string of luck in the La7, and my low flight hours.

Both kills were made at 350-450 yards, and a single burst crippled the plane I was shooting at. Sorry but I just don't see the problem your speaking of.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

hazed- · « **Reply #35 on:** April 17, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »

well it seems no one will be pleased until you drive out the people who like LW planes.
HTC claim it is a game first and foremost so they allow certain aspects(eg bomber gunner range) of the game to be adjusted to suit the gamer.Well i fly LW and so this brands any complaint i have a 'lufftwobble whine' (ever feel like we in a school yard?).
My complaint?
I fly an LW jabo and if im hit by any ack it will kill my engine first shot or take my tail off.The guns are incredibly more difficult to hit with than any other type of cannon(20mms).If my 190 dora has been hit in the radiator and i turn my engine off to try to keep it for a landing it continues to overheat and dies.We get rockets for a2a and they fire BELOW your eye line thus making hitting with them almost impossible and their range 700 yards? (1.7 now?).All these things and many more over the last year, ok so according to all the stuff you guys read this is the way it was but what im saying is this.You need to attract EVERYONE to this game.Those that like the Allied stuff and those that like the Axis stuff.
ALL are customers.
Im a customer who feels something is wrong with the LW planes damage models and guns but im a 'whiner' right?
well im getting tired of this too and tired of having to post proof of everything.Either this is a game or a sim.If im gonna have to fly LW with every problem modeled lovingly while F4uc's with laser cannons and the handling of an arcade game(rudders!) fly in the same arena and kill me often i think im going to get fed up and leave right?
well im nearly there.Dont know what else to say

------------------
Hazed
3./JG2

P.S. I have never complained about P51d or b,the b26,the F6F,the TBM,the p38,the p47's or the F4d for that matter.I am not anti- USAAF but it does annoy me when i do something that seems unnaturally easy in an F4uc and evry USAAF fan claims 'thats how it was' 'prove us wrong we have US test flight data'.
why do we bother?
hey im only $360 to HTC a year right? why worry that im unhappy ?

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-17-2001).]

hazed- · « **Reply #36 on:** April 17, 2001, 08:40:00 PM »

BTW we have been shown that the MG151 had quite a pronounced bullet drop.

OK accepted......

A) Dont you think that the LW engineers would mount the guns, when setting convergence etc, slightly upwards so that the path was more visible? thus making it easier to track a target with the tracer?
In 'view from a cockpit' (adolf galland) it states effective ranges for all the cannons up to BK5 and after a year in here i cant hit with 30mm over 200-300 and in the book its stated 600 yards.(it may have even said meters i cant be sure)
sorry no hard data as to why i cant hit with 30mm at a books stated effective range in AH.

maybe its almost impossible? well it isnt with hispanos is it? no no no hazed stop this talk ...thats how it was! right?

Im not trying to claim it was easy in RL im sure it wasnt but where can we check this sort of thing? accounts of WW2 pilots? i dont know.But to show a chart of mg151 bullet drop and then ignore any ways the LW engineers would have adjusted them to be more efficient or easier to use?
I really dont know about this but id bet there are ways to make 2 guns with similar effective ranges(hispano/mg151?) but different trajectories converge in the same way whether it be by fireing higher/lower to get same convergence and level.the slower bullet would be fired higher?.

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-17-2001).]

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #37 on:** April 18, 2001, 03:21:00 AM »

Hazed, the projectiles are running for 650m before dropping below guns level, and getting a max elevation of about 1.5m above guns level. If you scale the graph to the proper proportional X/Y sizes, you'll notice the trayectory is very tense. From 100m to 560m, all the proyectiles should keep clearly visible from the pilot seat.

Anyway, are these graphs based on AP or mine?

Vermillion · « **Reply #38 on:** April 18, 2001, 07:13:00 AM »

Well, I was going to write up a big response to all this but its just not worth the waste of the time and effort.

Just two points.

1.) The problems with the ack usually killing the engines, and the way they overheat, is a universal problem. Its not just the luftwaffe.

2.) Before you claim that there is some kind of conspiracy against the MG151, I suggest you fly any of the Russian birds, and try out the ShVak/B20.

Mandoble, I believe the chart lists the ammnition types but it looks to be acronym of the original german, and I don't know german well enough to figure it out.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Hooligan · « **Reply #39 on:** April 18, 2001, 08:44:00 AM »

Verm:

What is the acronym?

Hooligan

Vermillion · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2001, 12:13:00 PM »

*looks up at the chart earlier in the thread*

1= MG 131 (Fuselage), 13mm Spr. Gr Patr. Ub El
2= MG 151/20 2 cm Spr Gr patr Ub 151

The bolded part is the portion that I thought denoted the ammunition type, but I could easily be wrong.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

hazed- · « **Reply #41 on:** April 18, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »

<PUNT>

Hooligan · « **Reply #42 on:** April 18, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »

spreng granat patrone

These are HE (not Mine) rounds.

I am not sure about the Ub El and Ub but it might have something to do with the fusing mechanism.

Jay

Kirin · « **Reply #43 on:** April 18, 2001, 05:48:00 PM »

I do not have any fancy graphs to show, I didn't study aerodynamics and weapon balistics but I speak from my experience in AH.

In the D9 I have a much harder time to hit anything than in the other 190 models. Heck, I couldn't even hit a Spit 150 yards of my nose in more or less level fight. No problem in a A5 to do that!!!

How can it be that so many (dedicated) FW190 drivers report the same problem? Yes Verm, we know you can shoot the eye out of a fly at 1.5 with the D9 - but we can't!! Really wondering...

Daff · « **Reply #44 on:** April 18, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »

Hehe..in some other sim, not so far away, the LW went when they got AP ammo!
"We want HE ammo!"
Then they got HE ammo and now they go!
"We want AP ammo!!"

Nothing ever changes

Daff