MY ARENA CAP IDEA

[The Fugitive]

eesh quite difficult to discuss the effects of having no dynamic caps at all and just using hard caps when everyone still has the dynamic cap mindset.

imagine the biggest map we have in LWO. the hard cap would be whatever the map can support without overcrouding becoming an issue. recently ive seen 600-700 in LWO with no major problems, so say 750 hard cap. now have a small map in LWB, one that can handle say 450.

from what ive seen the last few weeks, most people (90%?) like to fly in a busy arena (LWO). regardless of what those 90% think is "a decent fight" or what most would consider the critical mass for fun in an arena there are another 10% of players who are still happier to fly in LWB for whatever reason. they choose to fly in an arena with numbers so low that 90% wouldnt bother. it seems to me that these 10% are the ones that would have been put off by the original single 850 cap LWA.

of course there will still be a point where players are forced into LWB, when LWO is full at 750 players. there will be at least another 80ish players in LWB (our 10%) so the cap only effects peoples choice when there are 830+ players online. ie primetime.

thing is, this is predictable, we know when LWO is likely to be full or almost full, which is alot easier to deal with than the dynamic caps. a common cap whine is "but I want to fly with my squaddies in LWO!" the usual answer is "well get them to come to LWB!" nice idea but the dynamic caps make it impossible to work that way. you get them to come to LWB, then another squaddie logs in and because the caps have changed he cant get into LWB...

the difference between hard caps and dynamic caps is that the hard cap only effects players' choice at predictable times of the week/day where its downsides are reduced and can even be planned for, whereas the dynamic cap effects players choices almost constantly.

The reason we keep talking about the dynamic cap is because at this point it is our reality.

TT is the only time you'll see a cap over 500 in an arena. HTC has said "This number is above 50 and below 500. We can argue where that number is exactly, but it is irrelevant because we have more people playing aces high at the same time then the upper bounds of this number."... Skuzzy quoted it HERE ... which means that 500 is the upper limit. HT...using the numbers available to him for subscriptions and cancellations and population... which I'm sure he will NEVER release to the public..... knows that when the arena population runs over those numbers for any lenght of time he looses business.

So with subscriptions over that 500 number we need 2 arenas. Due to "herd mentality" people herd together where other people are so they will NEVER and they have proved this be able to maintain and even cap between the 2 arenas we MUST have.

So we must....

have a cap between 50-500 to maintain a healthy growth in the company.

have two Main arenas due to the number of subscriptions (which HTC hopes continues to grow)

have an automated way to populate both arenas so that 500 people are not having fun in a locked arena while the other 100 or so are NOT in the open one.

Now, Lusche pointed out how fight disappear as the people that are logged in are just holding a spot. I don't know if that's true, but maybe it's something HTC can look at. If it's the case, booting those in active might make the cap more responsive as the population turns over from Euro to US prime times.

I understand the need for the dynamic caps, and being in early US prime time I don't often run into an issue as the second arena has a pretty good population to make it fun for me, but I've read these boards a long time and havn't seen any other idea that isn't full of MORE holes than the one we use now. Maybe Hitech's answer HERE will work, but personally I think he'll hear more screams from those in the middle of missions or furballs that will have to be kicked when the arena is switched.

[RTHolmes]

indeed on a large map 500 may well be the optimum number the map can support. there will also be maximum and minimum numbers that still provide a reasonable experience for everyone which will have quite a wide range. beyond those numbers the gameplay drops off considerably. 750 may be too many for even the biggest map we have, but its a rough guess. the cap would have to be set per map.

[Skuzzy]

Skuzzy by unhealthy do you mean lag issues or hording? If its hording then how about one large arena with a setting that sets a limit for planes that can up from fields in an hour or half hour.

Unhealthy as in the social interaction, or lack thereof.  Once so many people are in the arena, the ability to interact becomes hampered.  The degradation in social interaction leads directly to players not subscribing as they perceive the community as unfriendly.  This was observed for some time before HiTech bit the bullet and started testing different ways to get multiple arenas populated.  The result yeilding the least amount of issues is what we have today.  It is not perfect.  Yet, once in place we started growing again and it was not a subtle change in growth it could almost be decribed as explosive.

This has all been explained by HiTech and Pyro both.

There just aren't enough players to support a healthy environment outside of US prime time. I was sick to death playing in Orange, with a huge map and only 100-150 players populating it.

Also, Skuzzy, would you be able to post AH2's subscription growth since day one to community? I would love to take a look at the numbers just out of interest.

While HiTech would be the only one to be able to answer that question, I feel pretty comfortable saying that is not going to happen.

eesh quite difficult to discuss the effects of having no dynamic caps at all and just using hard caps when everyone still has the dynamic cap mindset.

imagine the biggest map we have in LWO. the hard cap would be whatever the map can support without overcrouding becoming an issue. recently ive seen 600-700 in LWO with no major problems, so say 750 hard cap. now have a small map in LWB, one that can handle say 450.

from what ive seen the last few weeks, most people (90%?) like to fly in a busy arena (LWO). regardless of what those 90% think is "a decent fight" or what most would consider the critical mass for fun in an arena there are another 10% of players who are still happier to fly in LWB for whatever reason. they choose to fly in an arena with numbers so low that 90% wouldnt bother. it seems to me that these 10% are the ones that would have been put off by the original single 850 cap LWA.

of course there will still be a point where players are forced into LWB, when LWO is full at 750 players. there will be at least another 80ish players in LWB (our 10%) so the cap only effects peoples choice when there are 830+ players online. ie primetime.

thing is, this is predictable, we know when LWO is likely to be full or almost full, which is alot easier to deal with than the dynamic caps. a common cap whine is "but I want to fly with my squaddies in LWO!" the usual answer is "well get them to come to LWB!" nice idea but the dynamic caps make it impossible to work that way. you get them to come to LWB, then another squaddie logs in and because the caps have changed he cant get into LWB...

the difference between hard caps and dynamic caps is that the hard cap only effects players' choice at predictable times of the week/day where its downsides are reduced and can even be planned for, whereas the dynamic cap effects players choices almost constantly.

I will say it one more time.  This cannot work.  All you do is create one big arena and the second arena ends up being mostly unpopulated and subscription growth dies.  You creat a situation where getting a fully functional second arena going does not happen until all the critical growth is over.  Thereby, the second arena just withers away, and so does our growth.

[Eagleclaw]

There are times when the minimum is 100 on both arenas. Maybe set a higher minimum Cap?

[The Fugitive]

indeed on a large map 500 may well be the optimum number the map can support. there will also be maximum and minimum numbers that still provide a reasonable experience for everyone which will have quite a wide range. beyond those numbers the gameplay drops off considerably. 750 may be too many for even the biggest map we have, but its a rough guess. the cap would have to be set per map.

Map size has nothing to do with it. Hitech ...using the numbers available to him... saw that anything over the 500 mark starts an unhealthy balance in the arena and leads to people UN-subscribing. See as unsubscribing is BAD to his pocket he had to come up with a way to populate 2 arenas at the same time... dynamic caps.

[Kazaa]

Unhealthy as in the social interaction, or lack thereof.  Once so many people are in the arena, the ability to interact becomes hampered.  The degradation in social interaction leads directly to players not subscribing as they perceive the community as unfriendly.  This was observed for some time before HiTech bit the bullet and started testing different ways to get multiple arenas populated.  The result yeilding the least amount of issues is what we have today.  It is not perfect.  Yet, once in place we started growing again and it was not a subtle change in growth it could almost be decribed as explosive.

Skuzzy,

I had great social interaction with the comunity before the orginal MA was split up, even when there was 700-800 people on. But what do I know, it's not like I played the game almost every day I could back then...

Here's a thought, you might want to think about changing the first radio channel (/) to country instead of help when the game is first run.  The amount of two week newbs I see communicating to each other using the help channel, completely oblivious to the other channels in the radio box is mind blowing. It even took me a couple of weeks to realise that I needed to press (shift+/ or is it ctrl+/)  to comunicate with countrymen back when I first started playing.

[Skuzzy]

One of the early changes, as HiTech came to grips with the fact a single large arena was killing us, was to change around the radio channels in the hopes new players might actually subscribe.  Whether or not it was actually subscription drop off, or players quitting faster than new ones would sign-up, or attrition due to players not staying as long, or all the above, we had stopped growing.

None of the subtle changes worked.  Once HiTech settled on the dynamic cap, growth came back.  We will never go back to a permanent large format static arena.  It is imperative we occupy more than one arena with a healthy number of players in both, in order to continue to grow.  How that is accomplished is the challenge.

Do you guys think we sit around here all day long trying to figure out ways to piss you off?  If we could have sustained growth with static arena sizes, then that is what we would be doing.  It was proven, beyond any doubt, there is no way to sustain growth with static arena sizes.

[WMLute]

The only idea that I have seen that might be viable is to enable players to enter "capped" arenas based on ENY and country numbers.

Example.

Orange
Bish:  180
Rook: 140
Knit: 120

Blue
Bish: 60
Rook: 100
Knit: 120

In the above example a Bish could could not get into Orange but a Rook or Knit could.  Bish could get into Blue but a Rook or a Knit could not.

By allowing to enter an arena based on the country you are on if it balances out the numbers, regardless of the cap, is one way to promote a nice even spread of players.

It also allows you to join any arena at any time.  You just might have to change countries in order to do so.

[oTRALFZo]

The only idea that I have seen that might be viable is to enable players to enter "capped" arenas based on ENY and country numbers.

Example.

Orange
Bish:  180
Rook: 140
Knit: 120

Blue
Bish: 60
Rook: 100
Knit: 120

In the above example a Bish could could not get into Orange but a Rook or Knit could.  Bish could get into Blue but a Rook or a Knit could not.

By allowing to enter an arena based on the country you are on if it balances out the numbers, regardless of the cap, is one way to promote a nice even spread of players.

It also allows you to join any arena at any time.  You just might have to change countries in order to do so.

+1000 on this concept. I also think this will help the community bind together if they get a chance to fly with people they normaly wouldnt fly with ( no more chess piece super hero generals..yayy). Would you eliminate the option to swap countries though when you do get into that arena?

[Skuzzy]

Then you give power to big squads for all they have to do is switch sides to mess up the balance.

It still does not address the issue of how to get multiple arenas up to a level where both are fun to be in.

[Lusche]

It still does not address the issue of how to get multiple arenas up to a level where both are fun to be in.

More and more I'm favoring the hard kick concept. At a set time each day (when population usually is around 400 or so), there is a 15-10-5 min warning message, then everybody gets kicked and both arenas get a 200 players cap. Both arenas fill up very quickly with those 400 players just booted from LWO.

Yes I know it won't happen...

I'm just getting more and more frustrated with living in the wrong timezone, when in the evening I can only enter a 50-100 player arena with a large map when actually 250 players are online. An it's a huge difference in gameplay experience.
Yes, I am aware, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Skuzzy, could we please at least have it that way, that LWB has always a small map?

[Skuzzy]

Like everything else about the service and game, it is always a work in progress Lusche.  I know Hitech is thinking about it everyday.  I think this is one are where we all feel there has to be a better way to do it.  We just have not found it yet.  We are a tenacious lot, so hopefully something will give.

[Traveler]

That does not solve the unhealthy arena environment.  If you think it does, please elaborate.

Is there somewhere to find out what "unhealthy arena environment"  means.  I've searched and found nothing. I really don't understand what this means.  Is this a technical problem caused by big numbers a problem for the network and server environment?  I'm trying to follow but just don't understand what this means.  I once asked Hi Tech directly if haveing 1000 people playing in an arena was to much for the servers and network and he said no, that the game could support that number with no problems.

[Skuzzy]

Uh, I thought I defined it here.

Yes, the game is designed to support 1,000 players in any given arena and the servers can support much, much more.

[Traveler]

Unhealthy as in the social interaction, or lack thereof.  Once so many people are in the arena, the ability to interact becomes hampered.  The degradation in social interaction leads directly to players not subscribing as they perceive the community as unfriendly.  This was observed for some time before HiTech bit the bullet and started testing different ways to get multiple arenas populated.  The result yeilding the least amount of issues is what we have today.  It is not perfect.  Yet, once in place we started growing again and it was not a subtle change in growth it could almost be decribed as explosive.

This has all been explained by HiTech and Pyro both.


While HiTech would be the only one to be able to answer that question, I feel pretty comfortable saying that is not going to happen.

I will say it one more time.  This cannot work.  All you do is create one big arena and the second arena ends up being mostly unpopulated and subscription growth dies.  You creat a situation where getting a fully functional second arena going does not happen until all the critical growth is over.  Thereby, the second arena just withers away, and so does our growth.

I’m guessing growth or the lack there of had more to do with the economy of the time then social interaction of large numbers in an arena.  I’m just venturing a guess, but has there been a decline in the overall populations over the last two years.