Timid

[Ghastly]

You only engage if you have an advantage, speed, alt, position, firepower.

Huh?  If I don't have the advantage I'm defensive - it's up to him to elect to engage or not, not me!

<S>

[Dadsguns]

I tend to fly in a way that some may call timid and others "smart." I won't engage a a con unless:

1) I have the advantage (alt)
or
2) It is at least CO-E
and
3) The numbers on each side are somewhat even (1v1, 2v3, 3v4, but not something stupid like 2v7).

Now some call that TIMID, others call it SMART.  The thing I have personally been struggling with is that I think this will "plateau" my learning curve.

Your spot on, that is not Smart in the sense you learn nothing about ACM other than having some sort of advantage.  You will hit the dreaded plateau in your learning curve. 

[Oldman731]

Now some call that TIMID, others call it SMART. Makes no difference to me. The thing I have personally been struggling with is that I think this will "plateau" my learning curve. Hence, recently I have flown some sorties in attack mode and intentionally headed into a horde just to see how long I can live/evade the 3,4,5 enemy cons. I know it is suicide, and I will die. But at that point my goal is not to get kills, but to see what works for reversals/survival tactics.

The Force is strong in this one.

- oldman

[Soulyss]

True. But timidness=kills usually? therefore would it not be better to be timid in fights and land with a certain number of kills or to be agressive and get many kills in as little time as possible? -Btw this is purely for discussion only, i already know where i stand on the subject love flying a 262 rolling scissors with 2 enemy at low alt in those roadrunners. even better if i replace the 262 with a a6m2

While I would say that it true that flying in a conservative/timid/smart/whatever-you-want-to-call-it  manner would probably be good for the 'ol K/D ratio you have to ask yourself what is "better".  There's pluses and minuses to every decision, some are just more obvious than others.  

Flying conservatively will lessen the risk of losing the plane and ending up back in the tower and will probably net more kills per death than someone who dives in or never ducks out of a fight.  What the 2nd player is doing is learning how to handle situations that the first player won't be to simply because he/she avoids them.  That's the minus, often we stand more to learn by failing than we do from succeeding and the player that won't allow themselves to fail by avoiding situations where it may be likely are missing some great learning opportunities.  

The problem is that learning can be often frustrating or even down right not fun so I believe the important part is to realize what you stand to gain and what you stand to lose based on how you decide to play and finding a balance between the two.

[gyrene81]

I believe Boelcke had a different dicta for online gaming but I can't seem to find it at the moment.   

You're thinking of Doltke...1 rule: do everything possible to game the game.


I don't use that, none of the respectable toon pile-its do.

[Kazaa]

Timid = you don't want to die.

[FLS]

You're thinking of Doltke...1 rule: do everything possible to game the game.


I don't use that, none of the respectable toon pile-its do.

No I think it was it was something like "you don't really die so the reward is the fight".
Never heard of Doltke.

[Ack-Ack]

Ok... I was just reading a wishlist thread about the name in lights in game and was reading about timidness. Time to see what people consider "timid" and what isn't. Like if you're in a 262 could a person NOT be "timid"? or if you're in a zero could you actually fly away from a fight and be able to be timid? Opinions and light discussions only please ... im tired of these stupid thread locking name maimer arguments back and forth.

A person that has no intention of fighting.  If a person does whatever it takes to avoid a fight and will only engage if the other player is fighting someone else.  A person when caught in a 1v1 will do whatever it takes to avoid the fight, regardless of whether or not they possess the advantage but will turn and engage as soon as you break off and turn around to only to have them run away again when you turn to meet them.  A perfect example of both is the recent poster that created the thread about quitting.

ack-ack

[Wiley]

Timid to me is avoiding the fight when you're at least co-E and there's no major disadvantage in numbers.  'Fighting' might involve BnZing the lower con to death and keeping him down so he can pretty much never get a gun solution on you.  To me that's not timid, that's using the situation to your advantage.  It's the low con's job to equalize the E if he can.

I'll second the sentiment that people are usually running from the 3 guys that are higher than the two of you coming in on the fight.  That's what I'm usually extending from when I do extend.  Either that or the enemy is in a co-E plane that can turn better than mine, and has demonstrated that he knows how to use it.

As to 'plateauing' in skill level, I don't exactly see it as that.  You're just refining one skillset instead of another.

Like it or not, engaging multiple cons with advantage, killing a few of them while keeping your advantage, and RTBing is a skill set.  Gunnery at high speeds, often compression speed against slower more maneuverable aircraft isn't that easy.  Maintaining your E while still applying enough pressure to the enemy to keep them off balance takes skill.  Sure, if you do it right and the enemy aren't working together to get you it's 'easy' compared to engaging those same cons in a dogfight.

Dogfighting is another skill set.  It requires you to have better skill at avoiding the enemy's guns, and the ability to handle your plane in low-E states.  Most of the time in the arena I see it as 'begging to get shot by the fifth con you didn't see that is BnZing the furball' but that's just me.  These are the whiteknuckle fights if you don't get BnZed early.

I've known quite a few guys who were outstanding in a turnfight that couldn't maintain their advantage past two turns if you put them in a fast, less maneuverable plane and gave them a world of enemies below them to shoot at.  I've also seen a lot of guys who could beat you down six ways from Sunday in an E fight if they start with advantage who can't deal with a con co-E 800 yards out on their six.

Bleh, the 'plateau' discussion is starting to feel dangerously close to a hijack.  Bottom line, if someone's running from me when I have advantage, they're timid.  If I'm running from someone who has advantage, I'm flying smart.  So nyah. 

Wiley.

[Dadsguns]

Wiley, admit it, your a runner......      

"that guy has alt on me.....  "

[Wiley]

Erm... well... uh... 

Truthfully?  I'm more apt to run if the guy is co-E than if he's got speed on me.  I have more confidence in my BnZ defense than my co-E defense. 

I think I might've been in or near that group you were talking about last night, thought I saw your name once or twice.  Fun fights the two or three times it was even. 

Like I said in the original post, I often run if the guy's co-E on my six in something that turns better than I do.  Call that timid if you like, I call it either 'flying to the strengths of my airframe' or 'admitting defeat'. 

Wiley.

[RufusLeaking]

Like I said in the original post, I often run if the guy's co-E on my six in something that turns better than I do.  Call that timid if you like, I call it either 'flying to the strengths of my airframe' or 'admitting defeat'. 

Nothing wrong with your sentiment.

On the other hand, one can’t be called timid for returning a Brewster to base when faced with a K-4 that is fighting nose up all day.  It isn’t “timid.”  It is “bored.” And it would be “stupid” nine of ten times for the K-4 to slow down and turn fight.

Do what is fun.

[TequilaChaser]

Nothing wrong with your sentiment.

 it would be “stupid” nine of ten times for the K-4 to slow down and turn fight.

Do what is fun.

I guess I am stupid then...... or was I just wanting to have fun?

for turn fighting my cartoon F4U-1  against WMaker's Brewster239.........

.......... but I had fun regardless that I lost the fight

[Drex]

If you want to shoot down a timid pilot running from you, make yourself a better target.

Drex

[Soulyss]

Nothing wrong with your sentiment.

On the other hand, one can’t be called timid for returning a Brewster to base when faced with a K-4 that is fighting nose up all day.  It isn’t “timid.”  It is “bored.” And it would be “stupid” nine of ten times for the K-4 to slow down and turn fight.

Do what is fun.

I was flying the Brewster in that situation I would look at as a challenge.  If the 109K wants to he can sit up there all day long and there really wouldn't be much I could do, the challenge and the fun to me is if I could sucker him in close thinking he had a shot then snatch it away from him at the last moment and convert it to a reversal and snap shot opportunity of my own.   Sure I would fail at first but after some tries it would start to click and hopefully the next time I'm in that situation I'll have choices.  

The trick is balancing challenging yourself and maintaining a certain degree of success so that the learning process doesn't drive you batty.  After awhile you should start to find more situations that are comfortable and in the MA where oftentimes you're faced with an unfavorable situation being comfortable and confident in yourself that you at least have a fighting chance of coming out on top is a good feeling.