Sherman VC firefly vs. M4A3 (75mm)

[Kenne]

For the rockets and other goodies hopefully upcoming

well then I really hope THEY do and YOU do. cuz ill be waiting at 1200m in PkWIV knocking u around
when u cant even dent me at that range...

"Kenne landed 26 victories in..."

[Squire]

"The weaknesses of the 17 lb gun in accuracy and in rounds shattering on contact with heavy armour are also not in the game.
By its factory specs the Firefly gun was near equal to the Panther gun, in the field it was not due to weaknesses in ammo design. It certainly could tear up Panzer IVs and Stugs though."

The round you are referring to is the 17 lber's APDS round (Armor Peircing Discarding Sabot, made of tungsten) which is NOT modelled in the game. It could penetrate 233mm of armor at 1000 meters and was capable of killing either a Tiger or Panther at any angle. APDS tended to not be as accuarate as regular APCBC ammo beyond 1000 meters, but its killing power was very potent. APDS ammo was issued to Fireflys from Normandy untill wars end. Even with regular ammo the 17 lber was a very potent gun, capable of going through 150mm of armor at 1000 meters with APCBC ammo (its regular anti-tank load which is modelled in AH).

The US Army found in Normandy that their 76.2mm gun was not as powerfull as they would have liked when it came across Panthers and Tigers, but it was more than sufficiant to deal with the Panzer IV series. They also developed a specialist round for it, known as HVAP, that could do 175mm or armor at 1000 meters, but was not as good as APDS. It reached US Army units in the Fall of 1944.

The best books on the whole Sherman Firefly and US Army Sherman 76mm vs each other, and vs everything else, including design history, stats, and combat effectiveness are Ospreys books on the AFVs:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Sherman-Firefly_9781846032776
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/M4-(76mm)-Sherman-Medium-Tank-1943–65_9781841765426
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Panther-vs-Sherman_9781846032929
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Sherman-Firefly-vs-Tiger-_9781846031502

"Tank vs Tank" by Kenneth Macksey is also a good book.

[Kenne]

"The weaknesses of the 17 lb gun in accuracy and in rounds shattering on contact with heavy armour are also not in the game.
By its factory specs the Firefly gun was near equal to the Panther gun, in the field it was not due to weaknesses in ammo design. It certainly could tear up Panzer IVs and Stugs though."

The round you are referring to is the 17 lber's APDS round (Armor Peircing Discarding Sabot, made of tungsten) which is NOT modelled in the game. It could penetrate 233mm of armor at 1000 meters and was capable of killing either a Tiger or Panther at any angle. APDS tended to not be as accuarate as regular APCBC ammo beyond 1000 meters, but its killing power was very potent. APDS ammo was issued to Fireflys from Normandy untill wars end. Even with regular ammo the 17 lber was a very potent gun, capable of going through 150mm of armor at 1000 meters with APCBC ammo (its regular anti-tank load which is modelled in AH).

The US Army found in Normandy that their 76.2mm gun was not as powerfull as they would have liked when it came across Panthers and Tigers, but it was more than sufficiant to deal with the Panzer IV series. They also developed a specialist round for it, known as HVAP, that could do 175mm or armor at 1000 meters, but was not as good as APDS. It reached US Army units in the Fall of 1944. :

"Tank vs Tank" by Kenneth Macksey is also a good book.

excel post.
yea our 76 mm M10 round was 'on par' with the german 75...but only against the PkW4(~90mm). the panther and tiger had much more amour...over 100mm.

[OOZ662]

I've only read about 10 or so posts in this thread, but the point I'd like to make (in response to everyone saying "if its gun is on par with the T-34s, it's going to suck/be a hangar queen/ect") is how the game is slowly bringing the "standard" for tanks down.

People are used to getting bigger and better things. Upgrading, if you will. But if you look at the "strength" of the tanks being introduced, you'll notice that the average is declining. With proper balancing means, this can be put to good use. Back in AHI, you had three choices; Tiger, Panzer, M8. The Panzer was the throw-away tank and arrived en-mass to a target, while the Tiger could control the entire battlefield with decent support. A clash between groups of Tigers was a sight to behold. Due to that, the Panzer has always been seen as the standard tank in Aces High. With the introduction of the cheap Firefly, things got a bit confused.

With a properly made perk cost balance, we may see (rightfully in a historical sense) the T-34 and Sherman become the most used tanks in the game, with Panzers in slightly fewer numbers, Fireflies in a reduced quantity, and Tigers being rather rare. One could also do away with the historical lean on perk cost and use it only as a performance balancing system, in which the Firefly and Tiger would be equally rare.

As all of this is simply a proposition it obviously won't be specifically what's implemented. But, as you can see, it's a possibility. Just because we have ubertanks doesn't mean "lowering the bar" is a bad thing.

[jay]

would suck if panzers (after this update) some how got perked (like a firefly) i like a panzer now and then but i (and multiple other players) dont use it as a throw away IMO

[OOZ662]

would suck if panzers (after this update) some how got perked (like a firefly) i like a panzer now and then but i (and multiple other players) dont use it as a throw away IMO

Not any more. The T-34 has filled that role. That example was back when the Tiger, Panzer, and M8 were the only vehicles with a "main gun."

[Ack-Ack]

Not any more. The T-34 has filled that role. That example was back when the Tiger, Panzer, and M8 were the only vehicles with a "main gun."

Tiger, Panzer, M8 and LVT4

ack-ack

[OOZ662]

I thought I'd forgotten one. How about "AP-capable" then?

[321BAR]

no
caliber refers to length of the barrel.
if the barrel is 43 calibers, and the projetile is 75mm, then 75mmx43calibers=3325mm/25.4=127"/12"=10.5'.

so a 75mm gun of 43 calibers has a barrel lenght of 10.5 feet.

but however, the longer barrel DOES increase velocity and acuracy and range. the longer barrel
allows for more complete burning of the propellant charge and thus the above.

the PkW IV was used thru out the war, and the shell (75mmx495mm (AufF2) the barrel
got longer and longer, giving it the range and penatrating power.

for toejams and giggles the M3 gun used on the M4 is 75mmx350mm!

so can everyone see just by looking at the length of the shells for both of these 75mm rounds that the American sherman is just a waste of time!!

we HAVE a sherman...the Firefly...why the Frick do we need the Ronson?

HiTech said the M4A3 will not be the dry ammo version but the wet storage version, no fires... and this 75mm will be able to penetrate the PnzrIVH but will probably not kill on the front

[Kenne]

and this 75mm will be able to penetrate the PnzrIVH but will probably not kill on the front

at what range?

[321BAR]

at what range?

any? dude i just read your rampage thread about the M4A3/75mm, dont start here also... some of us like peace in war games

[Pongo]

no
caliber refers to length of the barrel.
if the barrel is 43 calibers, and the projetile is 75mm, then 75mmx43calibers=3325mm/25.4=127"/12"=10.5'.

so a 75mm gun of 43 calibers has a barrel lenght of 10.5 feet.

but however, the longer barrel DOES increase velocity and acuracy and range. the longer barrel
allows for more complete burning of the propellant charge and thus the above.

the PkW IV was used thru out the war, and the shell (75mmx495mm (AufF2) the barrel
got longer and longer, giving it the range and penatrating power.

for toejams and giggles the M3 gun used on the M4 is 75mmx350mm!

so can everyone see just by looking at the length of the shells for both of these 75mm rounds that the American sherman is just a waste of time!!

we HAVE a sherman...the Firefly...why the Frick do we need the Ronson?

You say I am wrong, then you say exactly what I said.
Calibre refers to the ratio of the bore to the length.
That increases velocity which increases kinetic energy which increases penetration. With the extra shell weight and charge size that normally go with it, it really increases penetration.
So increased caliber generally increases penetration is totally correct. Its not a definition.

By your definition of what should be in the game, we only need the Panther, the Comet, the M26 and the Is2m. Right. If its not the best in the war, why even have it?

[Kenne]

The calibers of these guns generally equate to the weight of the shell and the velocity of the round, and that impacts penetration of course.

this is what YOU typed.
where do you state length of barrel or ratio etc?

[Kenne]

any?

really?
Then you are telling me that at 1200m the M3 75mm of the sherman,
should be neck n neck with the KwK40 75mm of the PkW4...yes?

[Guppy35]

Any chance you gents can wait to whine about the new Shermans until we have em?

What I'm starting to detect here is the typical "German tanks are invincible, Allied tanks are terrible" bit at work.

Kenne, it's just possible that some folks are interested in potential scenario uses etc, not just the last tank built before the war ended battles.  Historically the short barrel 75 Sherman covers a lot more scenario turf then the Firefly.

Not everything is built for Latewar MA fights.  You don't like it, don't use it.