Sherman VC firefly vs. M4A3 (75mm)

[jay]

depending on the new shermans reloading time the T34 will still be on bottom unless the rooks get there eny high enough to not have tanks again lol

[OOZ662]

Any chance you gents can wait to whine about the new Shermans until we have em?

Don't lump us all with Kenne. I'll lose self confidence.

[Guppy35]

"The weaknesses of the 17 lb gun in accuracy and in rounds shattering on contact with heavy armour are also not in the game.
By its factory specs the Firefly gun was near equal to the Panther gun, in the field it was not due to weaknesses in ammo design. It certainly could tear up Panzer IVs and Stugs though."

The round you are referring to is the 17 lber's APDS round (Armor Peircing Discarding Sabot, made of tungsten) which is NOT modelled in the game. It could penetrate 233mm of armor at 1000 meters and was capable of killing either a Tiger or Panther at any angle. APDS tended to not be as accuarate as regular APCBC ammo beyond 1000 meters, but its killing power was very potent. APDS ammo was issued to Fireflys from Normandy untill wars end. Even with regular ammo the 17 lber was a very potent gun, capable of going through 150mm of armor at 1000 meters with APCBC ammo (its regular anti-tank load which is modelled in AH).

The US Army found in Normandy that their 76.2mm gun was not as powerfull as they would have liked when it came across Panthers and Tigers, but it was more than sufficiant to deal with the Panzer IV series. They also developed a specialist round for it, known as HVAP, that could do 175mm or armor at 1000 meters, but was not as good as APDS. It reached US Army units in the Fall of 1944.

The best books on the whole Sherman Firefly and US Army Sherman 76mm vs each other, and vs everything else, including design history, stats, and combat effectiveness are Ospreys books on the AFVs:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Sherman-Firefly_9781846032776
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/M4-(76mm)-Sherman-Medium-Tank-1943–65_9781841765426
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Panther-vs-Sherman_9781846032929
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Sherman-Firefly-vs-Tiger-_9781846031502

"Tank vs Tank" by Kenneth Macksey is also a good book.

Throw in Mark Hayward's book "Sherman Firefly" on top of that pile too.
Steve Zaloga's early Osprey work "The Sherman Tank in US and Allied Service" is a decent history as well.

[Kenne]

Don't lump us all with Kenne. I'll lose self confidence.

I agree, for 00z cant lose anything else.
Cuz if he loses his confidence, all he has left is fantasy.

[Rino]

well then I really hope THEY do and YOU do. cuz ill be waiting at 1200m in PkWIV knocking u around
when u cant even dent me at that range...

"Kenne landed 26 victories in..."

     Since even tigers can be "dented" at that range, kinda wondering what you're driving? 

[Rino]

.

[321BAR]

really?
Then you are telling me that at 1200m the M3 75mm of the sherman,
should be neck n neck with the KwK40 75mm of the PkW4...yes?

dude we're talking about frontal armor...not overall strength. and you do know 1,200 meters isnt really that far in terms of GV battles

[Die Hard]

The Pz IV was originally designed as an infantry support tank. The Pz III was designed as a tank destroyer to operate alongside the Pz IV, much like the US concept of using infantry support tanks and tank destroyers, except the Germans also armored their tank destroyers. The 1942 equivalent of a 75mm Sherman would be the Pz III Ausf. L with the 50mm KwK 39 L/60 and 70mm spaced frontal armor (50+20) on the superstructure and turret. The Pz IVs of that era were armed with a low velocity 75 mm gun and had less armor. The 50mm KwK 39 L/60 was a good match for the Sherman's 75mm in penetration, but obviously less effective against infantry. The Pz III's 70mm spaced front armor was also a good match for the Sherman's 51mm sloped armor.




For a 1941-1942 desert scenario (pre-Sherman) we would need earlier Pz III versions, Italian tanks and early British cruiser tanks.

[321BAR]

The Pz IV was originally designed as an infantry support tank. The Pz III was designed as a tank destroyer to operate alongside the Pz IV, much like the US concept of using infantry support tanks and tank destroyers, except the Germans also armored their tank destroyers. The 1942 equivalent of a 75mm Sherman would be the Pz III Ausf. L with the 50mm KwK 39 L/60 and 70mm spaced frontal armor (50+20) on the superstructure and turret. The Pz IVs of that era were armed with a low velocity 75 mm gun and had less armor. The 50mm KwK 39 L/60 was a good match for the Sherman's 75mm in penetration, but obviously less effective against infantry. The Pz III's 70mm spaced front armor was also a good match for the Sherman's 51mm sloped armor.

(Image removed from quote.)


For a 1941-1942 desert scenario (pre-Sherman) we would need earlier Pz III versions, Italian tanks and early British cruiser tanks.

ok ty for clearing this up. The III and IV look somewhat similar... maybe this is where i was mistaken

[Die Hard]

Yes, when they were designed in the 1930s a great deal of effort went into standardizing parts between the two models. They have the same tracks, road wheels, drive sprocket, return rollers, transmission and engine. Other parts such as hatches, periscopes, sights and electrical equipment was also the same.

[Kenne]

     Since even tigers can be "dented" at that range, kinda wondering what you're driving? 

dented yes,  NOT killed, by the sherman, that is if modeled correctly.
and i drive the PkW4..dint u reed that in the post? 

[Kenne]

and you do know 1,200 meters isnt really that far in terms of GV battles

of corse. but the 75mm sherman wood never engaged at that range. the shell just coodnt achieve satisfactory results at that range.

[Die Hard]

In reality typical combat ranges for WWII medium tanks were less than 500 yards. Only the big heavy hitters like the Tiger could effectively engage enemy tanks at beyond 1000 yards.

[Kenne]

In reality typical combat ranges for WWII medium tanks were less than 500 yards. Only the big heavy hitters like the Tiger could effectively engage enemy tanks at beyond 1000 yards.

correct, so how much reality is gonna be 'modeled' into the 75mm?

[E25280]

ok ty for clearing this up. The III and IV look somewhat similar... maybe this is where i was mistaken

If you are ever unsure if you are looking at a III or a IV, count the road wheels.  6 on the III and 8 on the IV.