Reviewing the "HO"

[TheRapier]

Baumer, that's a good analogy but in this case, I think that many would argue (particularly folks that are prone to HO) that this is a legitimate part of the game. As the game is constructed and based on the real life combat its supposed to model it IS part of the game.

In the MA we have every stripe of folks in there, from well disciplined to no discipline. How would you regulate this? how would it work? can you actually eliminate it?

I'm saying that instead of trying to enforce the unenforceable, recognize what IS and align with that. Then there is no need to argue or complain about what happens.  What happens, happens because you chose it.

The other choice is that these arguments go on forever . Valid choice if you like arguing .

[The Fugitive]

Ok please dont yell or tell me im a noob or whatever as this is a serious question about that mindset i dont understand. Basically you say if someone has the drop on you and you get the chance to win dont take it but try and make them burn there E. What happens if the person your against is good and dont burn there e.  Should i just bail out and give them the win? O should i just keep turning running or whatever till he kills me since he never lost the advantage?
Also basically if everyone should go for the perfect ACM kill then they need to remove most of the aircraft because some aircraft are not dogfighters but run into a dogfight so what do they do?
Some of the best planes are like the f4u-4 and spit 16 or temp are just really better planes that say a 190 a5 or a 109f. You take the shots offered to you not 'take the high road " and let them get a free kill.

Everyones favorite saying is THIS ISNT REAL WAR ITS A GAME so then i guess we should all just fly 1 plane in 1 arena and have a kill switch on them that dont allow you to fire unless your on someones six.

As a serious answer YES give up the HO shot and work for another. Each plane has its pluses and it's minuses you have to learn to use them. If your in the 109F against the Spit16 you could be in trouble, but for me I'd work at getting him to burn his "E and then set him up for an overshoot and pop him.

If your in your big plane and Bnz all the time why would you be in a HO situation? In most cases you are higher and pounce on ...hopefully... unwary targets. On the other hand, learning the limits of your plane can save your butt when your SA lets you down and you are in a bad situation. No I'm not saying bail out and give the other guy the kill, but certainly make him work for it! There is most likely less than 10% of the people who play this game that are just unbelievable and no matter what you do you can't beat them, but remember at one time they couldn't win half the fights they were in either.

Fugitive, while I applaud the sentiment behind your words, I don't think its ever going to happen.

It may be easy to define, but how do you determine "deliberately" in the game? Do we need referees to figure it out? That won't be happening.

Do we rely on self policing? That won't happen either.

It is entirely possible that two well meaning people are going to be approaching from somewhere in the frontal quarter and due to differences in updates from the server, one will see a HO and the other a frontal quarter shot. It leads to endless and ultimately fruitless recriminations that go exactly nowhere.

Whether its real war or a game, there are going to be times when, like it or not, the approach is going to be HO. My preference is to orient to reality and not some unobtainable dream state. I'm coming from a place that is essentially, "It's going to happen. Instead of complaining about it, expect it and do something about it."

If you don't like to be in one, then fly so it doesn't happen.

Those that are going to HO because that is all they know, are going to do it anyway, despite any sanctimonious exhortations. They are going to do what they are going to do. What will YOU do?

It doesn't work to try to change others, the only one you can change is yourself.

ahhh see, you got it right on your last line! As I said it is up to each person to decide to HO or not to HO.

You said "Whether its real war or a game, there are going to be times when, like it or not, the approach is going to be HO.", and I agree, but do you HAVE to fire on the merge? Again it's your choice.

What I'm pointing out here is people can use all the excuses they want, it still comes down to a choice. I choose to fight so I don't HO so the fight will be prolonged and the thrill continues. All the HO does is kill a fight. It doesn't kill the "enemy" because he gets a new plane before his chute hits the ground. It doesn't save your life because one of the next 12 guys is going to shoot down your cartoon plane.

It's your choice (meaning everyones) Just say NO to the HO!

[The Fugitive]

Ok, let me try this analogy,

I think a HO shot is similar to calling a foul in a pickup game of basketball.

Everyone understands that without some personal restraint, a game of pickup basketball can turn ugly quickly. Also most everyone understands the concept of an offensive or defensive foul in basketball, the same holds true in Aces High I believe. That's why I think (especially in the MA) it's important to recognize there are times when a HO shot is appropriate and does not harm game play.   

SO your saying its ok to foul in a pick-up game of ball? I know saying everyone should just say no to the ho is a pipe dream, but should that miracle happen imagine the fights that would happen in the game. What I'm trying to point out here is that going for the HO is a choice. Getting the information out there so other can see that there are many BETTER options in a fight than a HO is what this topic was intentionally all about. Educating the masses that there is a better way is a first step to improving game play.

[Dawger]

The number one reason folks get in a "Head On" situation is because they are actively pursuing a head on situation.

If both pilots are pulling for a guns solution, the end result is what is commonly called a HO.

All this whining and gnashing of teeth about codes of conduct is simply folks who can't stop trying for the guns solution and get mad when the other guy gets there first.

I never get into a HO without it being my own fault (or choice as the case may be). End of story. If you are staring down the barrels of the enemy you did it to yourself.

Turning the "HO" against the other guy is a simple attitude change. Beat the other guy by flying and only use the guns to let him know he lost.

Here is the Dawger method for teaching yourself to avoid the HO and turn it to your advantage if you can't get with a trainer that can teach the techniques required.

Step 1: Takeoff
Step 2: Fire all of your guns until they are empty
Step 3: Go find a fight and fly your best game with the knowledge that you can't shoot him.

Rinse and repeat until the only bullets that hit you are after you have have blown all your energy and are down on the deck with no more options.

It works like a charm if you have the balls to do it.

[Baumer]

SO your saying its ok to foul in a pick-up game of ball? I know saying everyone should just say no to the ho is a pipe dream, but should that miracle happen imagine the fights that would happen in the game. What I'm trying to point out here is that going for the HO is a choice. Getting the information out there so other can see that there are many BETTER options in a fight than a HO is what this topic was intentionally all about. Educating the masses that there is a better way is a first step to improving game play.

Did you foul me or did I foul you? What happened to cause the foul? This is a more complex question that defies a simple one sentence answer.

I think taking the position "Say NO to the HO!" doesn't help anymore than saying "They did it in WW2!".

   In order to help improve game play there has to be a more through discussion about exactly what it is that hurts game play and what doesn't. Going back to the example I posted, complaining that I took a HO shot while I was flying a B-25H vs a P-51 is ridiculous. I don't think you are taking the position that the P-51 is correct, and I should have let him come nose to nose and done a dogfight merge in my B-25 to fight it out, are you?

   In my opinion someone complaining about being Ho'ed when they shouldn't be complaining, is just as bad as HOing itself. As an example, a player who's part of a large group that's chasing a single CON has no right to complain about the single CON taking a HO shot if he gets it in the face. Seeing Veteran players complain about it when they have no legitimate reason to, doesn't help the new player who reads it.

   I'd love to play this game without the HO shot just like I'd like to play Basketball without getting fouled. Some times it's better than others, but it always happens less with the people who know more about the game.
 

[doomed]

As a serious answer YES give up the HO shot and work for another. Each plane has its pluses and it's minuses you have to learn to use them. If your in the 109F against the Spit16 you could be in trouble, but for me I'd work at getting him to burn his "E and then set him up for an overshoot and pop him.

If your in your big plane and Bnz all the time why would you be in a HO situation? In most cases you are higher and pounce on ...hopefully... unwary targets. On the other hand, learning the limits of your plane can save your butt when your SA lets you down and you are in a bad situation. No I'm not saying bail out and give the other guy the kill, but certainly make him work for it! There is most likely less than 10% of the people who play this game that are just unbelievable and no matter what you do you can't beat them, but remember at one time they couldn't win half the fights they were in either.
 

Cool i could not agree more. My point was simple if in a fight and you've done your best but due to whatever the case may be your on the losing side of it and you get the opportunity to take a shot, take it.  Ive fought a lot of great guys and most wont call me a tard but if i get  a free shot i allways take it, but i never just aim my plane at a guy and hold the  trigger.  

<S>

[Ghosth]

I have to agree with Baumer here. There is a time and a place for everything.
1 on 1, similar or same plane, coalt, co-E there is no excuse for the HO shot.

If you are silly enough to let yourself get in front of the guns of an iL2, you deserve to die to the HO shot.
Or indeed any other shot he can make.

All too often people who just died transfer the blame for that death on the other guy.
Either he HO'd or he cheated (used ACM) or whatever other excuse they can come up with.
When what is really happening is the guy who died can't accept that he just made a mistake someplace.
Even if it was as simple as flying from the wrong field at the wrong time.

AH is like it or not complicated, there are many many variables.
But you don't learn or get better by saying all HO shots are wrong.
You just get frustrated and angry.

You learn by saying in these situations, for these reasons there are better choices to be made.
And instead of locking my nose on the opponent, if I setup some separation and a lead turn I can actually win the fight.
Instead of taking the cheap shot.

Fugitive you are a highly respected member of this community. And I personally also respect you highly.
Yet I believe that your promoting the wrong answer.

If your a newer pilot having someone like you say that there is no good front quarter shot. Just makes them think "well he's good, he can afford to fly that way. I can't"

Where if you explain where it shouldn't be used and why, and in what situations it can be used in, and why.
They are in my opinion much more likely to listen. Much more likely to look for help learning how to deal with it correctly.
And that sir is going to be good for gameplay in the long run.

[humble]

As I read this I go back to the little clip I posted. Here is a fight that was well under way. I can comment 1st hand since "I was there" . On one hand I can easily say I was in the inferior plane, started in an inferior position and worked the fight to the point where accepting a mutual face shot was the best I could do. The flip side is that by accepting the crapshoot I gave away my biggest advantage...my understanding and ability to fly the A-20 in just that scenario. My choice to take the fight out of my control and accept the outcome of the joust lies at the heart of the argument. This was no FQ shot (although he certainly set his approach up as one) I either gave up a FQ, attempted to evade or squared up. IMO this is very typical of a lot of the "complaints" we hear on 200 and the BBS...not a question of 1 side getting around quicker (part of the game and completely appropriate IMO) but one side squaring up early and putting the other in a position of either matching the impe3nding FQ shot or flying thru it.

I could have easily avoided the shot but doing so on the deck would have severely compromised my position unless I elected to fly a vertical oblique thru the shot window...

[Stones]

In situations where you have maneuvered your plane in front of another planes guns, expect to get hit.
Work on flying your plane to get only your guns on him.  Not both.
Don't expect not to get hit when you are nose to nose.
Unless by prior agreement with your enemy (dueling) don't expect a cold guns head on merge.
In front of every aircraft is a cone shaped area, a kill zone.  Stay out of it.
Don't rush to make a bad odds shot, fly a little longer and work to get a better one.
If you think you're out of options and the HO shot is all you've got left to offer.  You didn't fly well enough to create a better option.
Work on ACM and build a repertoire of HO avoidance moves that will allow you to build an advantage later in the fight.
Use the film viewer and review your fight.  Look at how you arrived in front of the enemy guns.  Learn from it.
Every con will shoot you.
Don't accept a merge you are not happy with.  Avoid and reset.

The rest is easy  

[The Fugitive]

Cool i could not agree more. My point was simple if in a fight and you've done your best but due to whatever the case may be your on the losing side of it and you get the opportunity to take a shot, take it.  Ive fought a lot of great guys and most wont call me a tard but if i get  a free shot i allways take it, but i never just aim my plane at a guy and hold the  trigger.  

<S>

Why take it? I would continue the fight without the shot to see if I could get him to make more mistakes and get the kill that way.


Baumer, Ghosth I agree with what both of you are saying. Let me expand my "answer" a bit. By NOT taking the HO shot you extend the fight. By extending the fight you can learn more, and I think BOTH players can have more fun. Those 15 minute grab outs don't end in 15 second fights.

I think even the new player should look at this as one of the first things he does, Turn off the Stall limited and don't go for the HO. In a long run it will make him a better player, better players make a better game.Accepting the FACT that your going to have your butt hand to you for a good 6 months and trying to learn from each of those fights is going to take a new player a lot farther in both skill and enjoyment than running around and HOin everything in site.

Yes there is a lot of HOin in the MA, and yes it most likely will continue for some time to come. In the old days there was much less HOin. there was a much bigger stigma to it then as well as more of the population was playing just for the fights. I'm "old school" and will avoid the HO automatically, and should I get nose to nose with a guy 95% of the time I won't touch my trigger. I except the fact that I screwed up and got into that position and will die to it if the guy has the aim and wants to end the fight, but thats me. I'm here to play the game, not to fly for 15 minutes to get to the fight to only find nobody wants to fight, but only wants to end the fight with a HO.

The idea of the thread was to point out why one should NOT go for the HO and the advantages that decision gives you in a fight. Getting the information out there may change some peoples flying style, maybe turning that "light on" that another posted posted. Maybe I'm too extreme with my "Say NO to the HO" mantra, but getting people to think about other moves and merges is a goal of mine. It's more obtainable than say.... World Domination ! 

[Baumer]

Fugitive, I know you have much more time in the game and I respect you greatly. I agree with you as well, I also die many times a month not pulling the trigger in a nose to nose when I could have shot (even by my own definition).

Let me relate a story that almost drove me to leave the game about a year ago. I don't often fly the 262 in the MA's, not because I don't have the perks, it just draws to much attention for my tastes. But one day I'm up in a 262 and I read on county channel that there are several sets of buffs headed for one of our bases, escorted by a couple of 262's. I've always looked forward to fighting a 262 vs another 262, and head in that direction ASAP. Once I get close to the bombers I spot a single 262 co-alt headed directly at me.  I put my nose down slightly and get a little lateral separation and neither of us fire on the initial merge. I am getting really excited at this point looking forward to a good fight, we both reverse and are back nose to nose at the top of the first immelmann and continue are around for another reversal. This continues for 3 or 4 more times and it's really getting exciting, we were both evenly match in skill so I knew it wasn't an uber-stick, but it was a very fun fight for me. On the next reversal we both get nose to nose at about 1000 yards apart, as the range decreases, I'm thinking about my next move, at 200 yards the guy steps on the rudder and shoots me in the face. I have never been more upset in the game than that. It was completely uncalled for, there were no other contacts anywhere near us and having been respectful in all the previous reversals I expected it to continue. So I really had to think long and hard about how I was going to address this issue with myself, because in the end all of this is internal. I know I will never be a top stick in the game, but I believe I am a good player and I try to promote a good playing environment. I tried for 2 years to be a "Say NO to the HO" kinda guy, but that only leads to frustration with how others play the game (in my case). Instead I now look at it from the perspective of how it impacts overall game play. I still get upset when it happens and it violates my definition of being an appropriate shot, but I am am at peace with myself most of the time.

[mtnman]

Personally, I think the HO is a valuable tool in the quest for "better fights".  I'm all in favor of it.  Without it as a possibility, and without people willing to take it, I fell our fights would be "cheapened".  I honestly have zero interest in a fight with no possibility of an HO, or for that matter, against an opponent who's "scared" to take a shot on me when he has it.

If you can kill me with an HO, go for it.  If you kill me, I don't deserve to have the fight drag out for one iota of a second longer.  If I "fail" at the opening move, I fail.  Simple as that.  To "pass" on the shot, to let the fight drag out beyond that point makes the fight a "sham". 

Now, if you choose to pass on it in order to jockey for a better position, I can respect that.  I'll do the same.  But, if you fly/merge poorly and present me with a shot, well, I may pass on it, but not without a twinge of guilt, and a disinterest in the rest of the fight.  For me, that fight is already over, and you lost...  Who cares about the fight to follow?  You blew it on the merge. 

Let the fight drag out, and then what?  If you shoot me down, I'm looking at it like "I can't believe I wasted my time on that.  The fight was over before it began, and even though his merge was horrid, and would have likely killed him IRL, he's thinking he's got this dogfighting thing figured out?".  If I win later in the fight, so what?  The fight was over at the beginning in my mind.

I see a lot of horrid merges, where my opponent honestly deserves to be face-shot.  I pass on about 99.9% of those.  Maybe it's the teacher in me, but the instant I see that I'm thinking "Dammit!  I should have taken that shot, just to teach this guy a lesson.  What a ridiculous merge..."  If I've got my opponent on vox, I'm more likely to take that shot, though.  Why?  To end the fight.  To take him away from it and say "Look, we've got to fix that aspect of your fight before we go any further".  I don't care how good you are in the later, or possibly more elaborate parts of the fight, if you can't live through the first 3 seconds.

Now, I'm not advocating that people go for the HO...  That's not my point.  I don't generally see it as a good option in a fight, even though I don't believe for an instant in the 50/50 thing.  I'm going to be looking at what I see as better options, and I'd prefer it if you do too.  But, don't feel like you have to.  And don't you dare pass up a kill-shot on me if you have it!  Don't waste my time...  If you have a kill-shot on me, end the fight.  Please...

[grizz441]

In the above example The Green pilot is pulling to get his nose around as quickly as possible, the Red pilot is not pulling as hard as possible in order to conserve some energy. In my opinion the Green pilot should be able to take the forward quarter shot. The primary goal of the Dueling HO shot definition is to make it clear, that be restricting the opportunity for any HO shot, and having it agreed to prior to the dual, the dual will produce a better picture of the two pilots comparative skills.

Maybe, but if the red pilot pulls a little harder he's risking a collision.  If he pulls even harder than that (if he can) to get inside, then the green pilot is in the exact same position opposite from pictured.  If the green pilot then pulls even harder to even it up, he's risking a collision.  See where I'm getting at?  At some point, somebody has to get out of the way exposing himself to a 'fair shot'.  This of course, is just looking at it in the 2D aspect.

[cobia38]

  Great thread Humble 
    just remember " One mans HO is another mans deflection shot"
   personaly I try not to HO,but sometimes it hapens. its part of the game.
   the only planes i HO 100% of the time are 190s/temps/262/pony,simplybecause its the only way to get them to either start turning or break them off.
   
     
   

[The Fugitive]

Fugitive, I know you have much more time in the game and I respect you greatly. I agree with you as well, I also die many times a month not pulling the trigger in a nose to nose when I could have shot (even by my own definition).

Let me relate a story that almost drove me to leave the game about a year ago. I don't often fly the 262 in the MA's, not because I don't have the perks, it just draws to much attention for my tastes. But one day I'm up in a 262 and I read on county channel that there are several sets of buffs headed for one of our bases, escorted by a couple of 262's. I've always looked forward to fighting a 262 vs another 262, and head in that direction ASAP. Once I get close to the bombers I spot a single 262 co-alt headed directly at me.  I put my nose down slightly and get a little lateral separation and neither of us fire on the initial merge. I am getting really excited at this point looking forward to a good fight, we both reverse and are back nose to nose at the top of the first immelmann and continue are around for another reversal. This continues for 3 or 4 more times and it's really getting exciting, we were both evenly match in skill so I knew it wasn't an uber-stick, but it was a very fun fight for me. On the next reversal we both get nose to nose at about 1000 yards apart, as the range decreases, I'm thinking about my next move, at 200 yards the guy steps on the rudder and shoots me in the face. I have never been more upset in the game than that. It was completely uncalled for, there were no other contacts anywhere near us and having been respectful in all the previous reversals I expected it to continue. So I really had to think long and hard about how I was going to address this issue with myself, because in the end all of this is internal. I know I will never be a top stick in the game, but I believe I am a good player and I try to promote a good playing environment. I tried for 2 years to be a "Say NO to the HO" kinda guy, but that only leads to frustration with how others play the game (in my case). Instead I now look at it from the perspective of how it impacts overall game play. I still get upset when it happens and it violates my definition of being an appropriate shot, but I am am at peace with myself most of the time.

I agree 100% Baumer. This senario has happened to me a hundred times. The difference between you and I is that I'm a stubborn old fool and I keep hoping that the fight will continue with out the HO. 


mtnman first you say "Personally, I think the HO is a valuable tool in the quest for "better fights".  I'm all in favor of it." and then you say "Now, I'm not advocating that people go for the HO...  That's not my point." That sounds like your hanging off two ends of the same stick!

I agree that if you are teaching someone and they line up fro a HO and you set up to kill him to teach him a lesson. This is fine in my book, it's training and there are different rules for that.  But in a fight in the game we are hoping to point out here that a HO at any time is a poor choice for a maneuver. There are much better choices. Even in Humbles posted film in the OP. Humble is very good in the A20, but had that been me I still wouldn't have gone for the HO he did. To him it was a last ditch effort knowing his other options were going to put him in harms way worst than the HO situation, and he "made a choice" to go for the HO. My flying isn't any more "noble" than his, nor is my skill any where near his, but to me it was a poor way to end a fight.

His film is a very good example of a HO. The 109 didn't do enough to promote the fight either from my point of view. After the first merge or two he should have realized he was going against someone who wanted to fight, not someone hoping to RTB. If thats the case, why would you want to put yourself any where near the nose of an A20?