What He-111 would be best for AH.

[Krusty]

Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.

Like you say, over the eastern front it had no opposition, so how do you think that affects loss ratios?

[Die Hard]

Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.

Like you say, over the eastern front it had no opposition, so how do you think that affects loss ratios?

The loss ratio would have been far more than 10% if "there was better than even chance you'd burn up after takeoff". The Greif is historically lamented for its early stability and engine problems, but the fact is that by the A-5 model these problems were ironed out and the He 177 had proved itself to be the most technically advanced bomber of the Luftwaffe. The RAF were impressed by the postwar tests on the He 177 A-5 and the single long-range He 177 A-7 they captured. Another very advanced bomber, the B-29, also had a reputation for catching fire, and also took two years to have its problems ironed out, after which it became one of the most successful bombers of aviation history. Unlike the B-29 the He 177 never got the chance to show its full potential due to the misfortunes of war.

He 177 A-1
First production series, 130 built. Stability problems. Engine problems.

He 177 A-3
    Second production series, 170 built. Sixteenth and subsequent aircraft powered by DB 610 A/B engines. Engine problems. Structural problems.

He 177 A-5
    Main production series, 826 built. Strengthened wing, shortened undercarriage oleo legs, increase in maximum external bomb load.

Those 300 A-1's and A-3's are largely responsible for the Greif's unfavorable reputation.

[bozon]

Loss ratio is directly tied in with how and how many were used, FYI. Mossie had a super low loss ratio, but that's because they used them for geurilla tactics, sneak attacks, never staged a frontal war. Had they flown in level at alt like US bombers they would have been slaughtered. Even the RAF thought they should never be used to dogfight.

Mosquito bombers were not mainly used for guerrilla tactics. They were used as high alt level bombers just like the other RAF bombers and flying with their stream (overtaking it). One major point is that the RAF was bombing at night and at their speeds they were incredibly hard to intercept by night fighters - fighters could not creep up on them from behind like it is normally done at night because the closure rate was so small it took forever - if at all.

The low lost rate for the B. Mossies was a combination of escaping night fighters and mostly due flak avoidance - twice the speed means half the time spent in the acks. Half the size means quarter the area to be hit by acks.

RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated.

[Guppy35]

RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated.

Don't believe thats accurate regarding escort.  Initially in 43 Beaus escorted Beaus.  When Mossies came to Coastal Command they initially escorted Beaus but it was determined it wasn't effective.  Mustangs then escorted both although never in great numbers.  They did not lose that escort once they got them although there was talk of it at times.  315 Squadron was first in Mustang IIIs then 19 and 65 squadron got the job with Mustang IVs.  4th FG USAAF also escorted them on one occasion.

Suggest taking a look at "A Separate Little War" about the Banff Strike Wing which was Mossies for the most part.  Dalachy had the Beaus.

As for He111s.  Adding it would mean adding the B of B version.  In terms of the MA, no one is going to live long behind all that glass in the nose and one little mg for defense.  We sure could use it for the B of B scenario, but survivability without escort would be non-existent in the MA

[Die Hard]

He 111H-3 for BoB. He 111H-16 for 1943 Eastern Front and Mediterranean scenarios. He 111H-20 (the last major production model) for 1944 Eastern Front scenarios.

[allaire]

Yes, because a plane that didn't carry any bombs, and was designed solely for the purpose of towing the largest gliders of WW2, is really what AH needs, eh?

But it had five engines man would make the perfect recon plane.  Na can't keep the jokes up under krusty's need to point out the obvious.

[hlbly]

Don't believe thats accurate regarding escort.  Initially in 43 Beaus escorted Beaus.  When Mossies came to Coastal Command they initially escorted Beaus but it was determined it wasn't effective.  Mustangs then escorted both although never in great numbers.  They did not lose that escort once they got them although there was talk of it at times.  315 Squadron was first in Mustang IIIs then 19 and 65 squadron got the job with Mustang IVs.  4th FG USAAF also escorted them on one occasion.

Suggest taking a look at "A Separate Little War" about the Banff Strike Wing which was Mossies for the most part.  Dalachy had the Beaus.

As for He111s.  Adding it would mean adding the B of B version.  In terms of the MA, no one is going to live long behind all that glass in the nose and one little mg for defense.  We sure could use it for the B of B scenario, but survivability without escort would be non-existent in the MA

I think my local librarian is begining to hate you Dan  We recently got a new one . Part of the local bond measure required library staff to make earnest efforts to aquire books requested by members . It was in response to public perception <accurate btw> that the library aquired books requested by a small minority of the users that represented a large portion of private donations , it only amounted to a very small portion of the total budget . While our taxes got us no consideration their little donations got them front door keys . Keep the recommendations coming . The section containing WW2 aviation history books is becoming quite respectable . This section is also becoming one of the largest contributors to the oregon interlibrary loan program . You can also now find some good fantasy books in our fiction section . A genre that is looked upon with disdain by the "elite" that never the less is popular with us common tax paying scum .

[bravoa8]

We need the HE 111 zwilling.   

[ElGuapo1]

JU-188 T....look at the performance

[BrownBaron]

Yes, because a plane that didn't carry any bombs, and was designed solely for the purpose of towing the largest gliders of WW2, is really what AH needs, eh?

I'm sure you can't be reffering to the 111...please oh please tell me you're kidding. 

[allaire]

I'm sure you can't be reffering to the 111...please oh please tell me you're kidding. 

The 111z was designed and built to launch the Me-231.

[Krusty]

The 111z was designed and built to launch the Me-231.

And was so bad at it they ended up sticking engines onto the glider itself, making it self-propelled.

[Angus]

Ahoi Bozon:
"RAF was incredibly short sighted regarding the mosquito, as a bomber and a fighter. With costal command mosquitoes were often escorted by Mustangs, but gradually the escort was dropped and the mosquitoes were escorting themselves and the Beaufighters. In a few engagements with 109/190s, even starting from a disadvantageous position and not primarily trained to dogfight they more than held their own. Not that it was the ultimate dogfighter, but it should not be understimated."
Just FYI, an old Mustang stick told me that escorting the Mossie was quite a silly thing because they cruised so fast and could hold their own. He was in awe about them.

[Simba]

The best He 111 variant for AH would be the versatile H-6; it served in great numbers on all fronts, both as a bomber and torpedo-bomber.

And I rather like the KG26 'Lion' badge.