Author Topic: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)  (Read 1069 times)

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2010, 03:58:22 PM »
(Update)

Honda dealer replaced the High Pressure switch and the Emergency Release valve on the compressor, the AC fan is working fine, and are now saying that "something" is causing pressure to build in the system and I probably have a "blockage" in the system somewhere.

They further said there is no way to figure out where the blockage is and will have to tear apart my AC piece by piece looking for it.

If there is a blockage, wouldn't it stand to reason that THEY caused the blockage when they converted my AC 3 weeks ago?

Man... I wonder how much this is gonna cost me now...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 04:06:22 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2010, 04:12:25 PM »
This is what they are telling me.

Pfft.

The only people who spew more bulltoejam than car salesmen are dealership service managers.

If you *must* go to a stealership, go straight to a tech and bypass these morons.  Not only do they have zero clue about... well... anything; but they are only interested in getting you back out the door if they cant con you into paying bogus bills.

Last weekend, my 15-year old wheel lock key finally gave out and I was told by the dealership that - get this - they don't have the master set because they don't service cars that old.

When I finally was able to sneak around into the service bay and talk to the mechanics; I learned that they did, in fact, have the master set but I had to schedule an appointment (for a 15 foot walk and 20 seconds per wheel?).  Awesome customer service.  Seriously - a smoke break would have taken longer.  I just need A key to go into B lock and swap for C standard lugs.  Appointment...

Went to AutoZone, bought a cheap socket and ground my own damned Jerry-rigged key.

F dealerships.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 04:14:46 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2010, 01:13:33 PM »
(update)

I am seriously considering walking away at this point.

They are now using a National Honda Tech. Line to advise them on my car.  It concerns me that they are needing to do this.

What they have done is took an infrared sensor and checked my AC at IDLE and at 2,000 RPM and did temp. readings at various points of the AC system.  They then submitted that info to this tech line and are waiting to hear back.

Apparently if there is a blockage those readings will tell them where it is at.

I don't have the slightest clue what is going on but one would think that THREE DAYS is enough time to diagnose and fix my friggin' AC.

I am debating picking up the car, telling them to stuff it, and going elsewhere.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline ROC

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2010, 01:19:55 PM »
Hi Lute,

You took the car in and requested a recharge of the existing system, something that can still be done.

They recommended an alternative.

It failed.

Tell them to put the old system back the way it was before you went with their recommendation.

They will say it is not possible, you will say that is not your problem.  All you wanted was a recharge, you took their recommended action and it failed.  Then walk away, go find the top dog of the dealership and say you want to look at a replacement vehicle for the one his service department broke and see how fast you get your A/C fixed.

Might not work, but fun as hell.
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline crazyivan

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2010, 01:28:10 PM »
Loved my old Acura and Honda. Had my Honda overheat all over a 2 dollar hose once! :rolleyes: Only problem with the AC for me was coolant.
POTW
"Atleast I have chicken!"- Leroy Jenkins

Offline ZetaNine

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2010, 06:33:50 PM »
Hi Lute,

You took the car in and requested a recharge of the existing system, something that can still be done.

They recommended an alternative.

It failed.

Tell them to put the old system back the way it was before you went with their recommendation.

They will say it is not possible, you will say that is not your problem.  All you wanted was a recharge, you took their recommended action and it failed.  Then walk away, go find the top dog of the dealership and say you want to look at a replacement vehicle for the one his service department broke and see how fast you get your A/C fixed.

Might not work, but fun as hell.


THIS

Offline falcon23

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2010, 09:00:28 PM »
Tell them you want to talk to the head of the dealership,and no one else..explain it to him..then tell him..THE ONLY thing they have to offer you is SERVICE,You can go anywhere and buy a car,there are other honda dealerships around..And if they cant fix it right,you WILL go somewhere else when you buy your next one..

 Talk to DCCBOSS he owns his own mechanic biz..

Offline lyric1

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2010, 09:26:27 PM »
Don't mess with any middle men. After watching my ex wife on issues like this she would send a certified letter with return receipt to the head guy of the corporation spelling out the problem. Every time problem was fixed pronto.

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2010, 11:40:06 PM »
(update)

Ok, they are saying it has a blockage somewhere.  They did infrared sensor readings, sent them back to the Natn. Honda tech people who are NOW wanting further tests done on the Compressor and on the Condenser.

They gave me the car back, I have not paid them anything except for the original conversion, and we have put off working on it until Mon/Tue.

I took it to another shop that hooked it up and looked at the pressure in the system.

At idle it is...

High pressure 115 psi
Low pressure 60 psi

When you throttle up the engine the low pressure drops and the high pressure raises.
(significant both)

I might add that the compressor is NOT cycling during this and that the AC Fan is working fine.

THAT guy said that, to him and with those psi readings, either the Compressor is going bad OR the dryer is clogged.  Normally when the compressor is bad both high/low are the same readings.  He told me my high wasn't high enough and my low not low enough.  So in his opinion it is indeed a blockage somewhere, and he thinks the dryer, or that compressor is starting to fail.

I guess it all boils down to what caused the blockage.  If when they originally converted it, vac. out the AC lines caused some debris to dislodge and cause the blockage, would that be THEIR fault or just an "act of God".  Was their something they failed to do properly that I can trace directly back to them or is this just something that "happens" and I need to either pony up a ton more $ or not have AC this summer.

All in all this has been quite frustrating.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 11:42:13 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Tigger29

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2010, 12:58:04 AM »
It looks like a bad compressor to me.  115 psi at idle is EXTREMELY low.  If there was a blockage somewhere, the high pressure side would spike (300+PSI) until it triggered the high pressure switch to cut it off... then the pressures should stabilize and then the process repeats.  Normal pressures on a 85-90 degree day for R134a is about 210PSI/35PSI at idle.. but this varies depending on the car and humidity and cabin temperature.. etc.  The general rule is that as the high side goes up, the low side goes down.  Since your high is low and your low is high, this tells me the compressor isn't doing its job.

I'd be willing to bet that the compressor is coming apart, and pieces of metal shavings etc. have the dryer all clogged up, and possibly the expansion valve as well.  The best course of action at this point would be to replace the compressor and dryer, and to flush the entire system.  You might want to consider replacing the expansion valve as well as it cannot be flushed.  It gets especially pricey at this point.

It's possible the compressor was already on its last legs and the conversion process was just enough to 'tip the scales'... as part of the conversion includes replacing the oil with a thinner type.  Kind of like with an old, worn engine... putting thin oil (which would have been just fine when it was new) might cause it to have problems.

The reason for this is since the new refrigerant has smaller molecules, the old mineral oil is too heavy for it to circulate along with the refrigerant in the system.  The new replacement 'PAG' oil is light enough to be carried, but doesn't play well with some compressors, especially old, worn ones.

As far as the dealership... if you can't get them to repair this for free, at least see if they'll credit all of the money you've spent with this thus far towards the final repair bill.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 12:45:25 PM »
(update)

Ok, they are saying it has a blockage somewhere.  They did infrared sensor readings, sent them back to the Natn. Honda tech people who are NOW wanting further tests done on the Compressor and on the Condenser.

They gave me the car back, I have not paid them anything except for the original conversion, and we have put off working on it until Mon/Tue.

I took it to another shop that hooked it up and looked at the pressure in the system.

At idle it is...

High pressure 115 psi
Low pressure 60 psi

When you throttle up the engine the low pressure drops and the high pressure raises.
(significant both)

I might add that the compressor is NOT cycling during this and that the AC Fan is working fine.

THAT guy said that, to him and with those psi readings, either the Compressor is going bad OR the dryer is clogged.  Normally when the compressor is bad both high/low are the same readings.  He told me my high wasn't high enough and my low not low enough.  So in his opinion it is indeed a blockage somewhere, and he thinks the dryer, or that compressor is starting to fail.

I guess it all boils down to what caused the blockage.  If when they originally converted it, vac. out the AC lines caused some debris to dislodge and cause the blockage, would that be THEIR fault or just an "act of God".  Was their something they failed to do properly that I can trace directly back to them or is this just something that "happens" and I need to either pony up a ton more $ or not have AC this summer.

All in all this has been quite frustrating.

man i'm waaay late on this one.

depending on temp, and humidity, your pressures should be(at idle) around 30-40 psi on the low side, and anywhere from 150 to 250 psi on the high side. the 250 reading would be on an extremely hot/humid day.
 the readings above show a restriction, probably the oriface tube or expansion valve...whichever your system uses. 60 is WAY too high on the low side, and 115 is WAY too low.

 the high pressure blow off valves generally will not blow out till the pressure is over 300 psi.

 as for blockage, there's generally 2 common areas, depending on how this system is set up.

1) if you have an expansion valve, find it, and tap it with a small hammer. if it brings pressures into range, then you have a bad expansion valve.
2) if you have an orifice tube, just take it out and put a new one in. they have filter screens built into them, and sometimes as they age, they will clog, causing a restriction.

 you stated that you were driving when it blew. forget the fan. if you were moving, then you had air going through the condenser, and the fan is a non-issue at that point. even if it were sitting still, and the fan not running with the a/c, you'll still not generally get enough pressure to blow the blowoff valve.
 
 someone else mentioned about converting........the conversion is crazy simply, and more than likely you could've done it yourself. it requires nothing more than placing the proper fittings on the lines for the r-134a, and installing ester oil, as the mineral oil that's used with r-12 will not be carried throughout the system. sometimes, if it's an older system, you'll want to replace the accumulator too.

hope some of this helped.
ingame 1LTCAP
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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 12:47:06 PM »
It looks like a bad compressor to me.  115 psi at idle is EXTREMELY low.  If there was a blockage somewhere, the high pressure side would spike (300+PSI) until it triggered the high pressure switch to cut it off... then the pressures should stabilize and then the process repeats.  Normal pressures on a 85-90 degree day for R134a is about 210PSI/35PSI at idle.. but this varies depending on the car and humidity and cabin temperature.. etc.  The general rule is that as the high side goes up, the low side goes down.  Since your high is low and your low is high, this tells me the compressor isn't doing its job.

I'd be willing to bet that the compressor is coming apart, and pieces of metal shavings etc. have the dryer all clogged up, and possibly the expansion valve as well.  The best course of action at this point would be to replace the compressor and dryer, and to flush the entire system.  You might want to consider replacing the expansion valve as well as it cannot be flushed.  It gets especially pricey at this point.

It's possible the compressor was already on its last legs and the conversion process was just enough to 'tip the scales'... as part of the conversion includes replacing the oil with a thinner type.  Kind of like with an old, worn engine... putting thin oil (which would have been just fine when it was new) might cause it to have problems.

The reason for this is since the new refrigerant has smaller molecules, the old mineral oil is too heavy for it to circulate along with the refrigerant in the system.  The new replacement 'PAG' oil is light enough to be carried, but doesn't play well with some compressors, especially old, worn ones.

As far as the dealership... if you can't get them to repair this for free, at least see if they'll credit all of the money you've spent with this thus far towards the final repair bill.

i'd think something besides a bad compressor, only because of the 60psi on the low side.

i apologize for bumping this....haven't been in here lately............
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 12:48:25 PM »
Quick question.

If there is a blockage, would that account for the odd High/Low pressure readings?

It is a Honda so it has an Expansion valve but according to the Service Mgr it is in the Dash?  Does that sound right?  Would love to try the tapping w/ the hammer bit.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline CAP1

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 12:57:56 PM »
Quick question.

If there is a blockage, would that account for the odd High/Low pressure readings?

It is a Honda so it has an Expansion valve but according to the Service Mgr it is in the Dash?  Does that sound right?  Would love to try the tapping w/ the hammer bit.

yes, that does make sense.

what could be happening, is that the compressor is doing its job, sending the r134 through the system, but it's encountering a blockage, causing this reading. yet some still gets through, causing the very low reading on the high side.

i don't recall you saying what year the honda was? some of them did have the expansion valve mounted just at the evaporator core, behind/below the dash. it should be on the passenger side, and i think it's a fairly easy matter to remove the glove box, and the lower dash trim to get at that.

 also, one other thing i forgot......if the dealer hasn't found it yet.....take it to a good reputable local "mom and pop" repair shop. they'll scare you with how good they are.

 if you want to post the year and model, i'll look it up on alldata for ya, and get you some information on the system.
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)