What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.

[Lusche]

Are you saying that the M4/76 is too much vs the Panzer?

You can tell I'm not a GV guy, but I do listen to you guys.

At this point, the 76's penetration seems to be slightly superior compared to the Panzer IV's gun, but the ROF is 50% higher... that's a very distinct advantage

In tour124, the Panzer had a K/D of 1.85 vs the (75), but only 0.52 vs the (76)

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Anything that can sit under 1k 6:00 behind the enemy spawn, and pop turrets in one hit. 

[Nemisis]

The panzer CAN beat the M4(76), but its not a 50/50 chance.

M4 has faster turret traverse, slightly superior gun, 50% higher ROF, and better armor. The M4(76) won't always beat the panzer, but it will 75% of the time.

[715]

I think we're getting some agreement.

From the posts so far, I’m getting these lineups for AHv2.19p4:

--------------------------------------------------
German | vs | Western ....| Eastern
Panzer .| vs | M4(75/76*) | T34/76
Tiger ....| vs | Firefly   .......| T34/85**
---------.-----------------------------------------

* Using the M4 75s and 76s in a 2 to 1 ratio vs the Panzer
** Using a slight numbers advantage for the T34/85 over the Tiger

Anyone else care to comment, or offer clarifications?

Thanks to all who contributed their input. 

I did some offline testing.  At 1400 yds the T34/85 cannot penetrate the Tiger frontal armor with either AP or HVAP even hitting the proverbial (yet probably apocryphal) soft spots of the drivers window or the turret ring.  At 1200 yds the AP still cannot penetrate.  The HVAP can just barely penetrate, if you hit certain areas, but they will not kill the Tiger even with multiple hits.  Of course the Tiger can vaporize the T34/85 with one shot at much, much longer ranges.

I don't really know what constitutes fair in a scenario, but I do know I would not want to be part of that match up.  Even with the return of the little berms, AH is a wide open uncluttered environment and the Tigers could just stand off at distance and kill the T34/85s with impunity (especially their weak turrets).

[Rino]

     I'm thinking the most even matchup would be the guy driving the same tank as you,
but for another country 

[CDR1]

try t34/76 in early war, you can shoot each other for hours, first one to get sick of the shooting and towers is hte loser.

[Nemisis]

715, you couldn't be more wrong. There are the impassible thickets of trees, the hemp bushes that flip 50 ton tigers, and the hedge rows, all in addition to the burms. This makes for very close quarters fights. I rarely have to engage anything out past 1200yds, and 800-1000 is normal.

Yesterday, I ambushed two tigers that passed within 200yds of me.

[715]

True, if you are lying in ambush there are places to hid and hope the enemy passes by (the terrains don't really have many true choke points).  But if you are advancing, as a scenario would require, the thickets, berms, and hedges are sparse enough that you will always have to transit open territory.  Then: boom.  I can easily hit tanks that are moving at ranges up to and beyond 3K and they can certainly hit me from those ranges while I'm maneuvering.

In the MA are virtually all of your kills really closer than 1200?  The majority of my kills are beyond 1200 (not counting suicidal M3s).

[Nemisis]

One side will always be advancing 715, AlWAYS. Two sides probably won't be advancing at the same time on the same spot. Getting in on eachothers flanks, yes, but not on the same line of advance. PANZERS would have an advantage over the T-34/85 if they were playing defense, its just the nature of the game.

And yes, either my sights are screwed up, or most of my engagments are at under 1200 yds. That either says I'm extremely lucky, or that I make better use of terrain and am able to advance to extreme close range much better than you are.

I'm not saying that I don't have a good number of engagments at long(ish) range, just that the numer of long range engagments is relativly low. Take those two tigers in my earlier post: We were both advancing, I ducked behind a burm and was able to kill an M4A3(76)W without being spotted, drive up behind those two tigers, and kill both of them without being seen. I then killed a firefly at 1600yds before a T-34/85 I didn't see killed me.

GV'ing comes down to 3 things IMO.

Use of cover and concelment: Hitting him from the rear at 500yds takes his gun out of the equation.
Gunnery: the penetration qualities of your gun matter VERY little of you can't aim it.
Use of terrain and movment: Fight from the high ground, and move in on the enemy's flanks and rear.

In order of importance of course.

[Lusche]

And yes, either my sights are screwed up, or most of my engagments are at under 1200 yds.

Do you have your head position adjusted & moved forward?

[Nemisis]

On the Panzer, T-34s, and the Tiger, but not the M4: the help you get from such a small enlargment of the sights is offset by the fact that the ranges are no longer accurate.

[Lusche]

On the Panzer, T-34s, and the Tiger,

Just asking, because with those tanks, you have to double the indicated range number to get "true" range, if you have done so.

Speaking subjectively for myself, most of my GV kills are well beyond 1200, mostly in the 1600 to 3000 range - but I'm generally a defensive player.

800 and less is definitely "panic" range

[Nemisis]

In your oppinon. I've known guys that won't open up and give away their possiton untill a tank is at under 200yds.


I'm a good long range gunner, just that most of my engagments are, by luck, at short range. When using the panzer, I don't usually have to use more than the "4" range mark. Perhaps its that I'm used to the T-34/76, which has a relativly weak gun. You simply HAVE to get close for the AP rounds to be of much or any use.

[jay]

75 (which i love) can actually smoke most tanks as long as it gets a flank 

[Easyscor]

It's taken awhile to get back to this, but I'd like it
as complete as possible. So, lets see if I have it
right for each type of terrain in side by side ratios
for both types of terrain.

Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     3      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     3
T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      1    |     1      ||      1     |     1
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     2
FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      4    |     3      ||      1     |     1
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      3     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      1    |     1      ||      1     |     1

It's curious, in the previous versions, I considered the Firefly vs Tiger and even match up, but even with the new change to the Sherman's mantle armor, no one is saying the Firefly is weaker compared to the Tiger.