Author Topic: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.  (Read 3771 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2010, 09:21:16 PM »
It's curious, in the previous versions, I considered the Firefly vs Tiger and even match up, but even with the new change to the Sherman's mantle armor, no one is saying the Firefly is weaker compared to the Tiger.

This change is only a few days old... too early to form a new opinion, there only have been about 70 Sherman VC vs Tiger fights in Late War yet.


I have taken the freedom of changing the table a bit... but it's purely subjective:

Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     3      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     3
T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      2    |     1      ||      3     |     2
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     4      ||      1     |     2
FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      4    |     3      ||      1     |     1
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      6    |     1      ||      4     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      4    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      5    |     1      ||      4     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      2    |     1      ||      3     |     2
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 09:28:31 PM by Lusche »
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Offline E25280

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2010, 10:21:12 PM »
I'm curious as to why you both rated the T-34/85 vs. Panzer as 1-4, same as the Firefly?  It is faster than the Firefly, but the gun is weaker.  I'm not sure I would rate it as low as the Sherman 76 since the T-34 has HVAP and a speed advantage (but Sherman has better rate of fire), but I wouldn't equate it to the Firefly.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2010, 10:57:12 PM »
Here are the most even match ups, assuming a 50/50 number split.

Open Terrain
German | Allied | Soviet

Panzer | M4A3(75)/(76)W* | T-34/76

Tiger I | Firefly | T-34/85**

Wooded Terrain

Panzer | M4A3(75)/(76)W* | T-34/76

Tiger I |Firefly/M4A3(76)W* | T-34/85**

* at a 2-1 ratio, respectively
** given a numbers advantage of 1.5

Firefly is at a disadvantage to the tiger in a fair fight. If the firefly gets the range faster than the tiger, he can still win; but if they get the range at the same time, or the tiger is faster, the firefly is screwed.

And the M4 would need a 3-1 numbers advantage in open terrain, not wooded. In wooded terrain, its whoever sees the other side first wins (M4 is olive drab, not the yellow-brown of the panzer). My advice would be to start a new topic when you use a new map, location on a map, or change the line up. Honestly, things can change from one spawn to the next. Some give a MASSIVE advantage to the defenders (V85 on the compello map, for example), where some give an advantage to the attackers (any where the spawn is uphill from the base/town).



And E25280, the M4A3(76) can COMPETE with the T-34/85, but is by no means its supperior or equal. Also, the T-34 has a paper turret, I've disabled one at 2700yds in one shot. At long range, the HVAP rounds are less effective than standard AP rounds, at med range the 76 can force a draw, and at close range the rule is whoever scores the first hit wins. T-34 has traverse speed (although not by a huge amount), and the M4 has ROF (again, not by any huge amount, but by enough to give it an edge): T-34 is more likely to fire first, but the M4 is more likely to score a hit first should they both miss.

The M4(76)'s gun also gives it a fighting chance against the firefly at close and lower-middle (out to 1300yds or so) range. Out past that, the likely hood of a one-shot kill or disabling shot drops below 40% for a good gunner (thats about all I'm willing to risk since the firefly WILL kill you at that range).
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Offline Karnak

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2010, 01:06:49 AM »
The M4A3(76) is superior to the T-34/85 in all but top speed and perhaps a slight loss of comparative penetration at 1500 yards and above.

I maintain my prior position, from best to worst tanks in AH looks like this:

Tiger I
Sherman VC 'Firefly'
M4A3(76) Sherman
T-34/85
Panzer IV H
T-34/76
M4A3(75) Sherman

The absolutely most balanced fight, in an MA, not historical sense, is the M4A3(76) vs T-34/85 and those two tanks should be the top free tanks, splitting the kills rather than a single tank have absolute dominance as is happening with the M4A3(76) getting three times the kills of the Panzer IV H and having a higher K/D ratio than the T-34/85.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2010, 06:22:18 PM »
Karnak, you forget turret traverse speed, and armor. The frontal armor is equivalent, but the sides and rear are much weaker. However, the turret armor is made of a wet paper bag, so they may be equal. I personally view the T-34/85 as slightly supperior in a one on one engagment, with the M4A3 pulling a bit ahead in an engagment with multiple opponents, as the ROF will let you kill them faster.

And karnak, I personally think that the K/D ratio has to do with a relative lack of weak points for aircraft. I've found none that are as easy to use as those on the T-34's and Panzer. Most likely, T-34's are (getting turreted/killed) by aircraft and (forced to tower out/getting killed) by enemy armor. And if the T-34/85 were free, likely it would overtake the M4A3 is usage and kills.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2010, 11:48:39 PM »
I think you're close.  I'd adjust as follows:

Open Country     ||  Wooded
(tunisia)              || (arden08)
M4 75   | Panzer || M4 75 | Panzer
      2    |     1       ||     3     |     2
M4 76   | Panzer || M4 76 | Panzer
      2    |     2      ||      2     |     3
FireFly  | Panzer || FireFly | Panzer
      1    |     2      ||      1     |     2

With the one above the Panzers need to knock out the Firefly first then overwhelm the 76's.  Four Panzers is just too much for a single tank with a slower recoil (the original 4:1 vs Firefly).

T34 76 | Panzer || T34 76 | Panzer
      2    |     1      ||      2     |     1
T34 85 | Panzer || T34 85 | Panzer
      1    |     3      ||      1     |     2

Again, four is too many.  In this case the Panzers need to knock out the 85 then move on to the 76's.

FireFly  | Tiger    || FireFly  | Tiger
      2    |     2      ||      1     |     2
M4 75   | Tiger    || M4 75   | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
M4 76   | Tiger    || M4 76   | Tiger
      2    |     2      ||      2     |     1

Here the Tiger's slow traverse rate will really hurt it in a wooded environment.

T34 76 | Tiger     || T34 76 | Tiger
      3    |     1      ||      3     |     1
T34 85 | Tiger     || T34 85 | Tiger
      2    |     1      ||      1     |     1


One thing to consider here is that the guy(s) under attack with lower numbers will be distracted and tempted to rotate the turrets to eliminate threats other than their current targets not knowing what they are as they sit in the guns.  That's part of the reason why even a small numbers advantage can work in a weaker tanks favor.  

I've sat on a field in a Tiger and been tracked by overwhelming numbers of M8's.  You just can't turn the turret fast enough to take out the numbers and that's why any 4:1 vs Panzers is going to be a tough road.  A Panzer can take out any tank in the game.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:56:25 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline 715

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2010, 01:38:54 PM »
I'm impressed.  You guys must be way more skilled than me in choosing to pit tanks that must close to less than 1K (T34/85) or point blank (T34/76) against Tigers.  I salute your skills, but somehow I think mundane players, like me, will be slaughtered in our T34s.

Offline Karnak

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2010, 05:08:25 PM »
And if the T-34/85 were free, likely it would overtake the M4A3 is usage and kills.
Even if that were to happen, which I don't think it would, so what.  I doubt it would have three times the kills over the M4A3(76) as the M4A3(76) has over the Panzer IV H.

The very light perk on the T-34/85 is enough that it sees very little use.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2010, 05:25:14 PM »
Just another chart on changes in tank usage numbers.
Keep in mind tour 125 numbers are just like a snapshot.





will post the current tank vs tank K/D matrix later... got some towns to bomb ;)
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2010, 09:30:01 PM »
Eagle, why do you give the M4(75)'s a numbers advantage in the wooded terrain, where they will be able to get within effective firing range MUCH easier? Swap the numbers for M4(75) vs Panzer, and it will be better.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2010, 11:07:05 PM »
I'm impressed.  You guys must be way more skilled than me in choosing to pit tanks that must close to less than 1K (T34/85) or point blank (T34/76) against Tigers.  I salute your skills, but somehow I think mundane players, like me, will be slaughtered in our T34s.

With a 5:2 numbers advantage if you can't get into point blank range with at least 2-3 tanks your strategy has failed.  I don't think this is supposed to work like the MA where everyone is there for themselves with minimal coordination.  Even if it was, you could literally drive circles around a Tiger with a T-34 firing while he tried to get the turret around.

Eagle, why do you give the M4(75)'s a numbers advantage in the wooded terrain, where they will be able to get within effective firing range MUCH easier? Swap the numbers for M4(75) vs Panzer, and it will be better.

Because the Panzer's still have a 7:6 overall numbers advantage which they will need given a Firefly and the pair of 76's in addition to the 75's.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 11:17:16 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2010, 12:11:24 AM »
Seeing as its wooded terrain, the firefly has lost most of its advantage (its gun), as it will be whoever hits first wins. I (personally) would omit the firefly in the wooded terrain, replace it with a M4(76), and give the panzers a numbers advantage of 7:5.

Either I'm far better than average at setting up ambushes and in close quarters combat, or you have an exagerated idea of how hard it will be to defend, even with mostly 75's.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2010, 06:10:51 AM »
And here it is... the current tank vs tank k/d matrix for LW, after 10 days of current tour:



I will do this again after the tour has been completed. Some numbers may shift considerably due to the relatively low number of engagements between certain types.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 06:12:39 AM by Lusche »
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Offline 715

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2010, 01:54:55 PM »
How do you access that data?  The score/stats page used to have "Plane vs Plane", but I haven't been able to find that in a long time.

Offline Lusche

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Re: What are the most-even matchups tank vs. tank? Your opinion please.
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2010, 02:35:29 PM »
Select "plane" and tour. Klick on a plane's (or GV) kills number to get a list of all targets killed by that plane/GV. Same for deaths. If you klick on the plane/GV name, you get a list of all pilots that did score at least one kill in this plane/Gv in the tour. If it's a completed tour, you will get even more (and sortable) pilot info.
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