Author Topic: 109 vs 190 a different story  (Read 3227 times)

Offline Mus51

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109 vs 190 a different story
« on: May 31, 2010, 05:14:55 PM »
I just found this on the youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YLLBvIBFk

The video says 190's could out turn 109's at any speed...  :joystick: If thats so, why don't the 190's turn at all in game?
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DutchGuy

Offline gyrene81

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 05:46:06 PM »
Pilot anecdote...not valid when compared to the books.



I liked the videos showing an unknown 190 not being out maneuvered or out run by a Yak 9.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 07:37:37 PM »
You know youve got it bad when you say to yourself "Hey, that clip is from a WWII VHS collection I have in the basement..."

Offline Tupac

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 11:54:13 PM »
I just found this on the youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YLLBvIBFk

The video says 190's could out turn 109's at any speed...  :joystick: If thats so, why don't the 190's turn at all in game?

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Offline Stoney

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2010, 12:00:15 AM »
I just found this on the youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YLLBvIBFk

The video says 190's could out turn 109's at any speed...  :joystick: If thats so, why don't the 190's turn at all in game?

We already did this thread in April--all 70 pages or whatever it was of it.  Lets leave this one be...unless you're actually interested in the aerodynamics...
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2010, 06:49:40 PM »
Personally, I would love to hear the aerodynamics.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 12:21:16 AM »
The video says 190's could out turn 109's at any speed...  :joystick: If thats so, why don't the 190's turn at all in game?

Ok, I'll bite then Nemesis.  First, the video is wrong when it says the "190 could out turn the 109 at any speed".  The video is correct when it says the 190 could out roll the 109 at any speed.  What we have beaten to death lately is the definition by historical resources of the word/term "out turn".  Does that mean instantaneous turn rate?  Sustained turn rate?  Are the authors confusing its roll rate with the ability to "turn"?  The high roll rate allowed the 190 to change direction quickly.  Historically, the ability to change direction was encompassed by the term "maneuverability".  So, when the historians say "the 190 was more maneuverable" than the 109, it probably was.  That does not mean it could "out-turn" the 109--it simply means the 190 could change direction faster.

As far as the 190's poor turn performance, its a matter of the wing design on the FW-190. The FW-190 has a very small wing, which contributes to slower sustained turning rates, higher required coefficients of lift for certain maneuvers, and a very high sensitivity to altitude.  I'm glossing over some things, but this is a rough description.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 12:23:43 AM »
Thank you Stoney, I enjoyed that.
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Offline Mus51

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 01:17:15 AM »
Ok, I'll bite then Nemesis.  First, the video is wrong when it says the "190 could out turn the 109 at any speed".  The video is correct when it says the 190 could out roll the 109 at any speed.  What we have beaten to death lately is the definition by historical resources of the word/term "out turn".  Does that mean instantaneous turn rate?  Sustained turn rate?  Are the authors confusing its roll rate with the ability to "turn"?  The high roll rate allowed the 190 to change direction quickly.  Historically, the ability to change direction was encompassed by the term "maneuverability".  So, when the historians say "the 190 was more maneuverable" than the 109, it probably was.  That does not mean it could "out-turn" the 109--it simply means the 190 could change direction faster.

As far as the 190's poor turn performance, its a matter of the wing design on the FW-190. The FW-190 has a very small wing, which contributes to slower sustained turning rates, higher required coefficients of lift for certain maneuvers, and a very high sensitivity to altitude.  I'm glossing over some things, but this is a rough description.


That makes allot more sense to me! I figured the 190's didnt have the wings to pull on.

The aerodynamics are a masterpiece though on the 190, i mean the way how the make it roll so fast is amazing.
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DutchGuy

Offline Yenny

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 06:23:31 AM »
Also correct me if I'm wrong since I'm just a computer gamer pilotzor! In real air combat, most doesn't often do on the deck turn fighting like in AHII. Instead they keep their E and use whatever advantages that plane and its situation permitted.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 09:40:59 PM »
Correct Yenny. Not eveything on the deck would turnfight. Often doing so would be just stupid.
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Offline Charge

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2010, 03:28:00 AM »
"The aerodynamics are a masterpiece though on the 190, i mean the way how the make it roll so fast is amazing."

Heh, I'm not at all sure about that. It seems that they could make the Spitty roll as fast with a much bigger wing by simply clipping it wingtips off...  :P

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Offline Bronk

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2010, 05:00:02 AM »
See Rule #4

Offline Mus51

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2010, 05:56:10 AM »
The rollrate of the 190 is based on non linear optimization of wing aerodynamics. Of course WW2-era planes were NOT unstable - else the pilots would have a very low life expectancy (30 seconds after their first take off, more or less).

Obviously an extreme reaction to any minimal moving of the commands is the upsidedowned effect and fighters are intrinsecally instable, the more fighters are instable the more they are aerobatic planes. This last part is quite noticable in Aces High while flying various planes edging the stall speed in a knife fight.

The limit is the fatigue exerted by the pilot and the correct balance was an artistic mix of allowed instability vs. stability.

Modern jets are all super-instable because the cloche is directly governed by the computer "buffering" all the corrections needed to go in a fixed straight direction. While the pilot imposes thru a joy-stick the correct changes of direction will not be send to the wings but to the computer.

The real pilot is a super-reactive computer but the 1st in command is always the human pilot. Also the reactions of the stick are "simulated" and regulated following the taste of the pilot himself.


Quote
Heh, I'm not at all sure about that. It seems that they could make the Spitty roll as fast with a much bigger wing by simply clipping it wingtips off... :P

So, they clipped the wings on the Spitfires to obtain better roll-rate but it came at a price, It hindered its high-altitude performance because of reduced lift and increased drag.

EDIT: I found a comparison document about the F6F-5 and the F4U-1 vs the Fw 190:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf


Bottom line: I think i'd better do research myself before i start posting  :huh.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 06:05:23 AM by Mus51 »
Regards,


DutchGuy

Offline Charge

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Re: 109 vs 190 a different story
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 07:53:48 AM »
The roll rate of FW190 is based on relatively short, stiff wings and Frise ailerons and I'd bet low thrust line i.e. the symmetry in rolling plane and low rotational mass contribute nicely too. It may be difficult to find any of those properties in Spitty, though, and the clipping actually had very little effect on its overall performance (alt, turning).

More of this subject here: http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/report.php?NID=2597

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