Adjustment to OOB for "Angels Eight"

[SmokinLoon]

They factored heavily at A73...G6 is no match for them at 25k

So in other words, the Spit16 didn't sway the battle and cause a short night, or a loss for the Axis?      They, the aircraft, didnt give the Allies any sort of advantage that the AH Spit 9 would also not have given.

I guess I could cry about having to use the B25's instead of the B26's, but what is the point?  I supposed I could wine about having the use some of the Spit 16's as ground attack aircraft (gasp, their traditional role!).  I suppose I complain about having to use the Typhoons as attack platforms instead of their traditional MA boom-n-zoom/HO craft, but nah, what is the point.  I think many guys simply jump the gun and make mental images of the MA pick fest and automatically figure the FSO is going to be a mirror image of the MA fiasco.  Hardly the case.

The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet.  The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses.  Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event. 

Oh wait, I forgot about this one too: I suppose I can wine about the Ar234's roaming freely, with an advantage of being able to up prior to the rest of the players.  But nah, it does nothing good. 

[Mus51]

I had a blast! I participated in one of the biggest furballs I've ever seen! Nice to see some historical accuracy in the skins aswell 4th FG P51B's against JG5 109G14's  .

[Squire]

Well from my end it looked like a fun evening. Im not going to be dragged into a endless debate on the plane set. I stated my reasons for the selections I made. The strength of SEA setups and FSOs are that they are never the same event twice, even if you re ran an old one, variables always happen. Plane sets are like that too, sometimes a/c get left in the hangar and sometimes they get used. Ratios also can vary widely, as can # targets and the side ratios.  Im not a flawless being, my setups are less-than-perfect, but I try and make them fun, and historical, and balanced. Its not as easy as you might think.

I will end this with a small point, I find it interesting that despite the fact its June-Aug 1944, nobody has mentioned the complete lack of P-51Ds? perhaps that was deliberate, perhaps that was also for balance? Tempest? more Spit 14s? Arados with formations?, if I wanted to just fill up one side with the uber rides to the hilt, beleive me I could have done it, but that was never my intent, and it never will be.

In any case <S>!  cya all next week, and try to have some fun out there.

PS: Dont sweat the invasion Axis, its all just a big decoy, they are coming at Pas De Calais! 

[SmokinLoon]

PS: Dont sweat the invasion Axis, its all just a big decoy, they are coming at Pas De Calais! 

 

Does that mean some M4A3/75mm and M8 vs Pzr IV match ups???  SCHWEET!!!

[gyrene81]

So in other words, the Spit16 didn't sway the battle and cause a short night, or a loss for the Axis?      They, the aircraft, didnt give the Allies any sort of advantage that the AH Spit 9 would also not have given.

At A73 they did make a difference, and according to the logs, everywhere they were encountered they made a difference. I guess you weren't in the area so you missed that. I do understand, being an expert like yourself is tough.

I guess I could cry about having to use the B25's instead of the B26's, but what is the point?  I supposed I could wine about having the use some of the Spit 16's as ground attack aircraft (gasp, their traditional role!).  I suppose I complain about having to use the Typhoons as attack platforms instead of their traditional MA boom-n-zoom/HO craft, but nah, what is the point.  I think many guys simply jump the gun and make mental images of the MA pick fest and automatically figure the FSO is going to be a mirror image of the MA fiasco.  Hardly the case.

Cry, whine, have a break dancing tantrum for all I care. I don't jump the gun about crap. The 109G-14 is barely a match for the spixteen or spit14. The 109G-6 in AH is no match at all, in the MA's, FSO, SEC or Snapshots. Can a person flying a G6 shoot down a spixteen? Yes, if the circumstances are right, but then so could a 190F-8. If the 109G-6 in AH was the AS model it would be slightly more competitive and there wouldn't be so much concern about the match up.

The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet.  The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses.  Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event. 

Oh wait, I forgot about this one too: I suppose I can wine about the Ar234's roaming freely, with an advantage of being able to up prior to the rest of the players.  But nah, it does nothing good. 

Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.





Squire, no offense...it's not a real bad setup, you can only work with what you have. The P-51B is just as competitive as the P-51D, may not be as fast, but it is more maneuverable.

[FiLtH]

  We saw some spits at the fleet on the first attack, but when we returned there was nobody around. Each time we went out we were like "Well this shouldnt last long" (being in the 190F8) but each time we got in and out with a few losses. Ship ack hit my forward fuel and totally drained it. I ran out of gas over the sinking DDs and was hauled aboard an allied lifeboat where unspeakable acts were done upon me.

[Baumer]

Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.

This is misleading, let me explain.

At V103 there are 26 objects worth points.

At A40 there are 48 objects worth points.

At C110 there are 132 objects worth points, however you can sink a ship and not get credit for all of the objects on it, in the logs.

That looks like 98 out of 206 which is very good results for an attack in WW2.

[daddog]

After a quick peek.

The Allies shot down 106 enemy AC.
The Axis shot down 143 enemy AC.

The Allies had 98 pilots who were captured or crashed.
The Axis had 59 pilots who were captured or crashed.

[Spikes]

I really had some fun with those jugs in my 234
Made 3 or 4 of them drop ord without even me firing a shot.

[Nefarious]

I will end this with a small point, I find it interesting that despite the fact its June-Aug 1944, nobody has mentioned the complete lack of P-51Ds? perhaps that was deliberate, perhaps that was also for balance?

I was under the impression the P-51D was just coming into service in June, at least with the 8th AF.

[SmokinLoon]

At A73 they did make a difference, and according to the logs, everywhere they were encountered they made a difference. I guess you weren't in the area so you missed that. I do understand, being an expert like yourself is tough.

Cry, whine, have a break dancing tantrum for all I care. I don't jump the gun about crap. The 109G-14 is barely a match for the spixteen or spit14. The 109G-6 in AH is no match at all, in the MA's, FSO, SEC or Snapshots. Can a person flying a G6 shoot down a spixteen? Yes, if the circumstances are right, but then so could a 190F-8. If the 109G-6 in AH was the AS model it would be slightly more competitive and there wouldn't be so much concern about the match up.


Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.





Squire, no offense...it's not a real bad setup, you can only work with what you have. The P-51B is just as competitive as the P-51D, may not be as fast, but it is more maneuverable.

You, like anyone else, can make stats show what you want them too.  If you look at the hard numbers, the ratio of targets killed, to aircraft used, etc., the Spit16 didnt fair any better than the Axis did vs the P47's, P38's, Tiffs, or even the P51B's.   

I say again the Spit16 offered no more advantage than what the Spit 9 would have.  Did you look at the stats for A42?  How did the Spit16 fair there?  Take your stats and shove 'em right into the shredder.  In the cae of A73, both units were well versed in what they did.  Neither unit I would consider a "filler", both were towards to top when it came for me to assign aircraft.  Units and the pilots within those units can make or break the "stats".   

Before you jump down my throat about crying, notice I didnt cry about anything at anytime.  I simply made a statement that the others, like you, should stop and take things for what they are worth.     

Stand down, tough guy.   

[Squire]

Right you are Nef, im a fan of the P-51B/C and I often find too much attention gets payed to the D model, as if somehow it was the only version that saw any action, but I was just pointing out that "legally" I could have stuffed it in there in a Summer 44 setup.

Spikes, you nasty dog, did you make anybody flinch?, glad you had fun in the Arado. I kinda like that cool engine start sound. My 190A-8 just belched black smoke at me. Just remember, its a lease, don't scratch it! 

[Spikes]

Not sure if they flinched or not
I ended up damaging a P47 knocking off half of his tail and getting a fuel on him. NKL5 helped me out and waxed another one too.  We ruffled some feathers though

I would like to req. that the 234s can use RATOs only on takeoff and send the film in that they did. I understand why they are not allowed, but they would really help out with a full bomb load and fuel.

I got two engine oil leaks yesterday, but I've got plenty of Jumo's back at home and she'll be all fixed up for next week, promise

[Squire]

RATOs, ya. Hmm. I really have always disliked the all too common practice of rolling with them and using them for the very unhistoric "escape warp". Its a very fast a/c as it is, and the RATO makes them next to impossible to intercept. Fine in the MA (I dont care) but im not a fan of that in SEA setups. I want them hard to get close to but not impossible. Sending in film is a nice idea, but not my 1st choice. I did some test runs myself, and found that with a nice easy TO run the RATO isnt really needed (although, it sounds really cool). 100 fuel isnt really required in a setup where the targets are fairly close. Would be different if they had a really long mission run and had to roll with a max load. I wish HTC just had them start as soon as you hit the throttle. Maybe they will change it down the road.

Thats a long way of saying. No RATO For You. Cutoff. One Year.

[grizz441]

After a quick peek.

The Allies shot down 106 enemy AC.
The Axis shot down 143 enemy AC.

The Allies had 98 pilots who were captured or crashed.
The Axis had 59 pilots who were captured or crashed.

Axis overcame the balance disparity with better strategy, tactics, and skill.  No other way to explain it.  Very surprising upset.