The tater chucker get nerfed?

[JunkyII]

It in no way effects any round more then any other. In fact one could argue using your logic that it effects faster ammo with faster fire rates because you are effect xxx times as often  to have the issue vs a slow firing 30mm.

But it is easier to detect the problem with the 30.

HiTech

Easier to miss too

[BrownBaron]

Actually, basic math has nothing on the physics (ballistics, Kinetic energy, wind resistance)  
If someone knows the mass of a 20mm bullet and a 30mm bullet, you could see how KE would increase with the mass of the bullet. Also, the 30mm  could hold more explosives.

Here grizz is referring to the amount of ammo of a MG compared to the 30mm.

[Scotch]

Finally.

[fbWldcat]

I was talking about how you simply divided 65 into 1000 and got 15. This does not mean the gun is more powerful, it means that the gun has 15x the amount of ammo. I was talking about actual POWER, not number of rounds.

[grizz441]

I was talking about how you simply divided 65 into 1000 and got 15. This does not mean the gun is more powerful, it means that the gun has 15x the amount of ammo. I was talking about actual POWER, not number of rounds.

That was my only point.  A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack.  (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)

[fbWldcat]

That was my only point.  A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack.  (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)

Gotcha now 

[bustr]

So? Is the 30mm nerfed or do we simply have a more accurate damage model? A few days ago I flew the K4 and got nothing but assists at point blank range fireing only the 30mm.

[grizz441]

So? Is the 30mm nerfed or do we simply have a more accurate damage model? A few days ago I flew the K4 and got nothing but assists at point blank range fireing only the 30mm.

That has to do with the damage model.  Even though you tatered someone, someone else had done more damage prior.  Solution?  Fly around less green.   

[hitech]

That was my only point.  A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack.  (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)

Your assessment again is incorrect because you are ignoring fire rates. You are trying to argue that 2 misses with 30 mm vs 2 misses with 50 cals, makes the 30 mm suffer more. While this statement is correct it is not the real situation.

Given any 3 sec burst the same % of rounds would be effected under both systems. And hence the killing power per sec has been reduced by the same percentage with each plane.

The same % of ammo has been wasted by each plane.

Your argument is equivalent to saying the p51 is effected more, because more rounds of the 51 are "duds".

And the reason im arguing this point is because of this.

Tell us luftwhiners something isn't wrong after seeing those screen shots.

You again are trying to show how the Luftwaffe are being screwed as compared to all other planes. And this just is not the case. It simply is a bug that effects everyone.

HiTech

[Spikes]

Hitech just to end my confusion, do you mean a single 50 cal vs single 30mm, or 6 50cals (pony) vs 1 30mm (K4)?

[hitech]

Spikes.

I'm talking fire rate vs fire rate, if that is 6 to 1 then yes.


HiTech

[grizz441]

Yes you are right as far as it all being relative to the chance of a dud versus ammo loads.  However the point I am trying to make that maybe I am not being clear about is how the 'duds' affect 30mm planes more because of the method of properly firing in a tater plane.  

A proper 50 caliber gun solution (lag pursuit) will yield continuous guns where a barrage of bullets will saw a plane in half.  It might be as many as 10 hit sprites in a centralized location to make a part fail.  When you work with this gun solution, a couple duds mixed in don't really make a difference, as you simply fire on target until the wing saws off.  No big deal if it takes an extra .5 seconds.

The tater is different though, as you work for crossing shots.  With these angles of attack you are working a gun solution where the enemy plane will zip by your cockpit at a very high rate of relative speed.  Firing a barrage of taters out in front of his flight path will usually only yield one tater connection if you are lucky, due to the slower rate of fire and your enemy's relative crossing speed.  So if you fire 5-7 taters out in front, and the one tater that is to hit him is a dud, not only do you lose 10% of your ammo, but you also missed out on the only gun solution you had there.  There's no makeups once you see it is a dud, it's too late to fire again, he's past you.  

I know this explanation might run somewhere on the KRUSTY scale with you, but I'd hope it makes sense after this explanation.

[fbWldcat]

I think I understand you now, Grizz. What you are saying is that you can hit an enemy maybe once with a 30 mm if you lead them, and any number of times with a more rapid-firing weapon? So therefore the impact that the smaller bullets in theory, does more damage than the single larger bullet? If so, I can back up this claim. Today I shot down a 110 in a Hurri mk1. (.303's) it took 20 bullets to one wing root but the thing went down soon enough. I then upped a 109K-4 and used nothing but 30mm cannon (also on a 110). I led the planes both times, and using the 30 mm cannon, I had less chance to hit the plane through the slower firing 30mm. I hit the wing twice out of about 7 bullets (110 went down). This in perspective. The .303 MG weren't dented as badly with 20 shots as the 30 mm was with the 7. But that duds will cause that dent to become even more severe?

Yes?

[hitech]

Yes you are right as far as it all being relative to the chance of a dud versus ammo loads.  However the point I am trying to make that maybe I am not being clear about is how the 'duds' affect 30mm planes more because of the method of properly firing in a tater plane.  

A proper 50 caliber gun solution (lag pursuit) will yield continuous guns where a barrage of bullets will saw a plane in half.  It might be as many as 10 hit sprites in a centralized location to make a part fail.  When you work with this gun solution, a couple duds mixed in don't really make a difference, as you simply fire on target until the wing saws off.  No big deal if it takes an extra .5 seconds.

The tater is different though, as you work for crossing shots.  With these angles of attack you are working a gun solution where the enemy plane will zip by your cockpit at a very high rate of relative speed.  Firing a barrage of taters out in front of his flight path will usually only yield one tater connection if you are lucky, due to the slower rate of fire and your enemy's relative crossing speed.  So if you fire 5-7 taters out in front, and the one tater that is to hit him is a dud, not only do you lose 10% of your ammo, but you also missed out on the only gun solution you had there.  There's no makeups once you see it is a dud, it's too late to fire again, he's past you.  

I know this explanation might run somewhere on the KRUSTY scale with you, but I'd hope it makes sense after this explanation.

You miss the point 1 out 7 times you would not get the kill with taters in your setup.

You would also not get the kill 1 out of 7 times with the 50 cals, in fact I could set up a case where if 1 out of 7 was duds the 30 would get 6 out of 7 kills in the same setups, where the 1 dud would make the 50 Cals never get a kill in any of the 7 planes.



HiTech

HiTech

[gyrene81]

I don't think HiTech is getting the idea that with only 65 rounds of ammunition available having to use 10% to get a kill has a more adverse effect on it's fighting ability than having to use 10% of 2000 rounds.

3 second burst Mk108 30mm at 650 rpm = 32.5 rounds out of 65 available - 50%
3 second burst M2 .50 cal at 850 rpm= 42.5 x6 = 255 out of 1880 available - 13.56% <--- 6 gun P-51D