P51 & FWa5 comparitive tests

[Hangtime]

Ran an accel and flat level speed checks against the AH published numbers.. and ran level speed checks against the published data thru 20k. Good news; they appear to check out on both planes with a very very slim margin of error.

The eye opener was the accel tests. Speed and accel comparisons were done at 150 feet agl, clean; half a tank of fuel.

Pony does 365 level wepped; the FWa5 about 345.

Pony gets from 150 to 365 wepped in 2 min 15 seconds. The a5 gets from 150 to 340 in 1 min 15 seconds.

Ran it three times.. takes a full minute longer for the pony to reach her top speed than it does for the FWa5.. methinks the FW is fine; and the pony's accel is porked.

Still, I think we need some comparitive turn rate tests done; from what I've seen in the main; the A5 is a deadly little bastidge when it gets to turnin on the deck.

Congrats Luftwobbles on yer 'new' mid war competitive ride.  

(Hang wants his Mustang III)

FWIW>> Hangtime has 17 kills and has been killed 3 times against the Fw 190A-5.<<

Just doin what I can to help stamp out the 190 menace... and killin 'em wherever I find 'em.  

Hang

[Nash]

Thanks for taking the time and doing this Hang. Numbers sure beat some of the rhetoric that gets tossed about here on occasion.

So if I understand you right... you found that in level flight, the A-5 adds up?

I guess some turn numbers are needed now.

[Citabria]

IF THE P-51 TURN AND ACCEL IS PORKED WTF IS UP WITH THE P-38?!?!!!!?


btw the yak9 rocks

[MANDOBLE]

AFAIK horizontal acceleration in P38 is better than in P51. It seems that A5 accelerates horizontaly better than any of them. After doing some offline tests (50% fuel, 2x20 guns A5, 4x20 guns A8, 6x12 P51), A5 is slower than A8 on the deck (about 10 mph) and slower than P51 (about 20 mph). But A5 acceleration seems much better than P51 and even better than A8 (at least 0 - 300). Even with 20 mph advantage for P51, Mustang will have serious problems to catch any A5 on the deck with so noticeable difference in acceleration.

[RAM]

Ok Hang, what do you mean here?...A5 SHOULD have that acceleration compared to a P51D...if you dont believe me check the powerloading numbers and you'll see what I mean.

REmember,too,that 190A can hold WEP for 10 minutes. P51 only 5.

Where did you measure 345mph? on the deck?...wich wsa the loadout? I ask it because the charts on HTC web show a speed of some 330 mph on the deck, while A8 is near 350.

Citabria, dunno about P38...But I think its acceleration is GREAT up to 250mph. Over that it is VERY poor. But that is like it should be historically isnt it?
as I say I dont know that mmuch about p38 so I'll reamain silent until someone tells here about it  

[Hristo]

Didn't it occur to you that someone fights the A-5 the way he should not fight it ?  

Pony is a great plane for high speed dogfight. A-8 shines in this category too.
Speed is the key to success in multi plane combat. Counting on other things will get you killed sooner or later.


P 51D against mid war 190 in a knifefight ? Hmmm....

[juzz]

 

Ran it three times.. takes a full minute longer for the pony to reach her top speed than it does for the FWa5.. methinks the FW is fine; and the pony's accel is porked.

You're looking at it the wrong way. How fast was the Mustang after 1:15?

The P-51D is at least 1000lbs heavier than the Fw 190A-5, with the same horsepower coming from its engine. It should be significantly slower in level acceleration.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-23-2000).]

[F4UDOA]

Hang,

That's amazing, 1 full minute better than the P-51D. Funny I don't remember reading in Chuck Yeager's autobiography how he was unable to catch 190's at low altitude in his Mustang LOL. Lets see the Mustang accelerates to 365Mph in 2min 15secs and the FW190 in 1min 15 secs. That is almost twice as fast. Lets see is the drag in the FW-190 twice as low as the Mustang? No, in fact it is higher. Does anyone have the actual critical mach nuber of the Fw190A series?
Is the power to weight twice as good? Lets see.

FW-190A5 weight 8690lbs power 1755HP
Power loading=4.95
P51D Weight 9500lbs Power 1720hp
Power loading=5.52

Better, yes. Twice as good? No way. And with the increased drag of the 190 the difference is even less.

Wells, do you have an airfoil analysis of the 190 drag coefficient. Or anybody else?
Funked? Anyway the P-38L has even better power loading so go figure. Citabria definitly has something to complain about. Originally I thought it was unbelievable e-retention but know it just may be that the accelleration is wacked. Fix that and get rid of the warp roll and we are back to reality.
If anyone wants to do some online testing just message me in the main arena.

Thanks
F4UDOA

[juzz]

You guys are too much.

Fw 190A-5 150-340mph in 1:15.
P-51D 150 to 365mph in 2:15. <-- DIFFERENT SPEED!!!

Get the numbers for acceleration over equal time or equal speed, then you have something to compare.

[Fluf]

Last night I read some anecdotal evidence on the acceleration of FW190s. I.Kennedy wrote of a low altitude encounter just off the Italian coast with 3 Fw190 jabos in 1943. Thay had bombed some allied shipping and were vectoring home at 3k feet. He intercepted from their level starboard beam in his spitV. They didn't see him. He hit the right hand 190 with a burst that he said would have knocked down a 109G and then he said all three started pouring black smoke as they cobbed the throttle. They pulled away from him before he could get another burst off. He was making 300 knots indicated flat out. He later caught the damaged 190 and finished it, as it eventually started slowing. He chased them 70 miles. He had several more low level 190 encounters while flying spit8s and 9s. His spit9 was the only one in 111 Squadron that could catch a 190 on the deck within a reasonable distance (40 mile chase).
His spit9 could quickly outturn a 190 in a low circle fight. He was impressed by the 190 and described the tactics of a good pilot as a shallow dive followed by a short climb and 'flick' turn when fighting a spit.
For spit pilots he gives interesting details of the rpms, speeds, clim speeds and other performance details of the planes he flew. His book is 'Black Crosses Off My Wingtip'.

As far as p51 accel versus 190 - don't forget that the p51 needs just a shallow dive to pickup speed very quickly. Allied pilots usually had altitude when over Europe. At high altitude the FW190A series didn't accel too great at all. The low altitude level acceleration difference between these aircraft would have been largely inconsequential due to these factors, but there is no need to doubt that it was there.
Fluf

[-lazs-]

Thanks Hang I got close to the same thing.  Try the Hog... It SHOULD have exactly the same accel as the A5. riiight...

LOL guys... The dominoes are beginning to fall.   The A5 had to be better than the A8... The A8 accelerated and turned better than it should against other planes in AH... Now the A5 is so bad (comparitively) that everyone notices.

The Corsair with 5.4lbs/hp and with real life side by side comparissons, should accelrate and roll exactly like an A5 and turn an easy 30% better.   If they fix the corsair compared to the A5 then a lot of the other planes will be exposed as accelerating and turning too poorly.  

I get 1-2 sec better turn for the A5 than the mustang and 3-4 better for the A5 over the Hogs.

I don't say change the A5... Leave it as is It's probly about right...I say fix the others comparitively.   Of course, that will make a faster game with more action tho.
lazs

[Kieren]

Hangtime-

I for one would like to state that I saw no accusations in your post. I see that you are trying to run objective tests (and thank you for that effort), and every camp with an agenda is jumping in here taking that effort out of context. You never placed a personal opinion on the data- you simply said "here it is".

BTW, the test Hangtime was running was to see how fast each a/c accelerated to its sea level top speed. It doesn't matter what that respective top speed is. If you want to be objective, notice that the time it takes for the 51 to gain that extra 25mph is a long time.

 

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
Thanks Hang I got close to the same thing.  Try the Hog... It SHOULD have exactly the same accel as the A5. riiight...

Wrong
 

LOL guys... The dominoes are beginning to fall.   The A5 had to be better than the A8... The A8 accelerated and turned better than it should against other planes in AH... Now the A5 is so bad (comparitively) that everyone notices.

[/b]
You never flew an A8 online. Dunno why do you insist it outturns anything. Unless you have no idea of how to turn and you do flat and the other does a yoyo. LOL!
 

The Corsair with 5.4lbs/hp and with real life side by side comparissons, should accelrate and roll exactly like an A5 and turn an easy 30% better.   If they fix the corsair compared to the A5 then a lot of the other planes will be exposed as accelerating and turning too poorly.  

Can you explain me how a 5.4 lbs/hp can accelerate with a 4.95lbs/hp one? it would be helpful.
And again, F4U best turning speed is 130, Fw190's is 185-190. So 190's turnrate is much better than F4U's, Hog will turn closer but not faster. A lag pursuit is all a 190 needs to keep with a F4U and beat it. Rant all you want, facts are facts. And 190s are 190s  

 

I get 1-2 sec better turn for the A5 than the mustang and 3-4 better for the A5 over the Hogs.

Oh great magicial lord Lazs,You've flown NO fw190A5 online, so how come you can outturn a P51 if you have fought none?

Tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-23-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Ram, another thread of  your sporting life in the Officers Club!  

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Ram, another thread of  your sporting life in the Officers Club!  

With its appropiate answer    
hehehehe