Stick Scaling

[grizz441]

Grizz, it doesn't work like that.  

At 100% across the board, you'd get a linear response throughout the entire range, such that by moving the stick 10%, you'd get 10% deflection of the rudder/aileron/elevator, at 20% you'd get 20%, etc.

Each "band" in the stick scaling applies a multiplier of X% to any stick movement in that band, such that with Ack-acks settings where the first pitch band is 45%, at the point where you've moved the stick 10%, you get 4.5% of the deflection (45% * 10%). And since the band of 40 to 50% of the stick deflection is set to a scaling of 62%, as you hit 50% you get 36% deflection with Ack-Acks settings. (Etc for the other bands) Note that the last band - 90 to 100 is set to 100%, so you get 100% at 100%.

What I don't like about scaling is that it's a trade off - you can scale for more precision around center, but (at least in every game I've every played that supported it, since none that I know of ever smoothed the curve) you trade this for an "odd hitch" as you move between bands.  The name of the game is keeping them as even as possible so that when it jumps from one band to the next and the scaling factor changes, the incremental change in deflection is as small as possible.

Using the settings you've described, even at the 10% setting for the first band, moving the stick 10% will only register a 1% deflection - and you'll almost have to have a "big jump" somewhere where a little movement registers a large change in deflection (compared to other areas of stick travel) if you want to get to 100% by the last band.  And at 2%?  Fugetaboutit. You are essentially registering a 10% deadband around center, since 2% of 10% is only .2%.

OakRanger, pics are in this zip file http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/stickscale.zip

Max, cfg is in the same file.

<S>

If that's how it works, then the stick scaling help article on the trainer's page should be rewritten.

Nvm, I somehow misread that epicly wrong.  Wow.  <kicks self>

[BoilerDown]

Honestly this whole problem is due to the 30 year old technology in our joysticks.  8 bit axis results in 256 discreet values, so we're stuck trying to put more of them in the important places and leave fewer of them in the places we care less about.  That's what stick scaling is.

Even 10 bits on an axis would result in 4 times the resolution.  Its high time we take up our pitchforks and head over to CH and Microsoft and all the other manufacturers and demand some better hardware.  The upcoming Hotas Warthog is the first and only stick that I know of that has improved in this area.  Stick scaling deserves to be a thing of the past.

[guncrasher]

If you wouldn't mind, open up your stick .cfg file and post the string of numbers you have under "pitch" to this thread.  Interested in seeing them.

ack-ack

where would I find this file?

semp

[oakranger]

AKAK, Thx.  i have used that scale and really do not see much difference.  Unless i did something wrong on the setting.

[Ack-Ack]

AKAK, Thx.  i have used that scale and really do not see much difference.  Unless i did something wrong on the setting.

In your AH settings folder, locate your controller .jsm file (it will be named the same as displayed in the Windows Game Controllers) and open it.  It will look something like this.  Remember to back up this file before making any changes so you can revert back to it if necessary.

CH Control Manager Device 1   <---Controller name
3,1
X Axis
255,32767,65535,0.000000,0.000000,0.250000
AXIS,ROLL,0,1  <---Aileron
0.45,0.49,0.53,0.57,0.62,0.67,0.73,0.83,0.93,1.00  <--These are the stick scale setting numbers
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
Y Axis
255,32767,65535,0.000000,0.000000,0.250000
AXIS,PITCH,0,1  <---Elevator
0.45,0.49,0.53,0.57,0.62,0.67,0.73,0.83,0.93,1.00  <--These are the stick scale setting numbers
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
Z Axis
0,0,0,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED,0,0
Button 0
NOTUSED,NOTUSED
NOTUSED,NOTUSED
NOTUSED,NOTUSED
NOTUSED,NOTUSED

Copy the stick scale numbers and paste them into your controller's .jsm file under Roll (aileron) and Pitch (elevator) and save it.  

Make sure that your controllers have been properly calibrated in both Windows and AH.  Remember in AH there are two calibration routines, one in the map controllers section (Calibrate Axis) and the general Calibrate Controllers in the Options/Controllers section of the clipboard.  

I have my dead bands and dampening turned all the way down on the bottom.  

The only significant change I've done to the stick scale is that I no longer scale the ailerons, just the elevators.  I left the scale numbers for the ailerons in this example because that's how I originally created this stick scale and didn't want to confuse anyone.


ack-ack

[Ghastly]

Honestly this whole problem is due to the 30 year old technology in our joysticks.  8 bit axis results in 256 discreet values, so we're stuck trying to put more of them in the important places and leave fewer of them in the places we care less about.  That's what stick scaling is.

Even 10 bits on an axis would result in 4 times the resolution.  Its high time we take up our pitchforks and head over to CH and Microsoft and all the other manufacturers and demand some better hardware.  The upcoming Hotas Warthog is the first and only stick that I know of that has improved in this area.  Stick scaling deserves to be a thing of the past.

I have to respectfully disagree - it's mostly necessary because a joystick isn't an aircraft.  In an aircraft, you have feedback from the controls - you can make precise adjustments because you the stick pushes back against you in a non-linear fashion as you move it away from equilibrium.  A (non-FF) joystick provides a nearly static centering force throughout the entire deflection range.  Without usable feedback, it's extremely difficult not to overcontrol, which is where scaling comes in.

(And most FF is broken in most flight sims - I've only really had one truly working FF stick/sim combination in over a decade and a half of flying sims)

As you've noted, it can also be used to compensate somewhat for limited precision of the detection circuitry in the average joystick, but if you think about it, 8 bits mean 128 "steps" from center to full deflection. One step even at 8 bit (if linearly scaled) is 0.78%. 

No, by far and away the most common reason most people need the ability to scale is that they can't move the stick that necessary "one to three clicks" in the first place - they can't feel where it is.

Which is not to say that more precision doesn't benefit the highly skilled pilot - it does.  But scaling tends to  benefit the less skilled far more for the reasons described.

All IMHO...
<S> 

[grizz441]

So with the stick scale, it's apparently impossible to get more than 10% elevator authority out of the 0-10% deflection range right?  Even if it's set at 100% it will only be 10%.  That seems like a flawed system, the way I had it worked out in my head seemed a lot more logical.

[Ghastly]

So with the stick scale, it's apparently impossible to get more than 10% elevator authority out of the 0-10% deflection range right?  Even if it's set at 100% it will only be 10%.  That seems like a flawed system, the way I had it worked out in my head seemed a lot more logical.

That's true, but the only time I've ever heard of anyone wanting a steeper curve was when using a floor mounted stick - they wanted more deflection for less stick travel because of the "amplification" of the (30 inch??) extension they were using.  In almost all cases, the goal is taming the response, not enhancing it.

Perhaps you could manually change the numbers in the cfg file to greater than 100 ...  The GUI of course "caps" at 100, but I don't know whether the program would read a multiplier of greater than 100% - nor of course that it wouldn't be all wonky if it did.

<S>

[katanaso]

What I don't like about scaling is that it's a trade off - you can scale for more precision around center, but (at least in every game I've every played that supported it, since none that I know of ever smoothed the curve) you trade this for an "odd hitch" as you move between bands.  The name of the game is keeping them as even as possible so that when it jumps from one band to the next and the scaling factor changes, the incremental change in deflection is as small as possible.

This can actually be seen if you look at the stick while slowly pulling back or pushing forward through it's range.  You'll see the little "hitch" every time it gets to a new scaling percentage.

To minimize the effect, I think I keep mine to around 5 or 6 between the bands.

In AW, I used to use a curve from around 80% (left) to 100% (right), like a "J" turned sideways, but that didn't work for me here. 


mir

[FLS]

So with the stick scale, it's apparently impossible to get more than 10% elevator authority out of the 0-10% deflection range right?  Even if it's set at 100% it will only be 10%.  That seems like a flawed system, the way I had it worked out in my head seemed a lot more logical.

Grizz you might be able to approximate that by limiting how far you move the stick when calibrating it as long as the stick doesn't auto calibrate when you move it past your initial calibration point.

[Nisky]

What would be a some good stick settings for the Z axis on a twist stick?

[Ack-Ack]

there isn't a real need to scale your rudder input.

ack-ack

[dunnrite]

there isn't a real need to scale your rudder input.

ack-ack

Is that just with a twisty stick, or does that also apply with pedals?

[Ack-Ack]

the z axis on the twisty stick is usually the Yaw (rudder) and that doesn't need to be scaled.  Only the elevators and ailerons need scaling.

ack-ack

[Nisky]

Thanks AKAK.