Puffy Ack

[froger]

will say i've seen Auto Puffy kill plenty of fighters but never a set of buffs.

true statement 




froger

[froger]

can we have a special (perked) flak vest and helmet ?

[RTHolmes]

was a Japanese Zero less susceptible to American Fleet AAA than anything else that was shot at because it was moving faster or evading?

yes.

[SEseph]

Japanese attacks on U.S. fleets aside, Puffy ack in the "not Pacific"  was fired in a Box Pattern in the path of the bomber stream.

(Image removed from quote.)

~~

wrongway

Now, I'm sure it happened, but I tried and couldn't find any battles or major operations carried out by any CV/CV group in the European theater. (I'm sure someone will find one quick since I said this) So according to our arguments wrongway, mine from earlier about Berlin, which is more accurate for Strats than CV's, we should use the principle of ground based flak and the way it works from a totally different theater (which again, I couldn't find any major operations for) to dictate the effects of flak from a CV.

I'm sure I missed typing something in my thought line, but it's modeled wrong, or at least not well.

If flak was as good as it is in AH, we wouldn't have lost so many ships or men. RTHolmes has it right.

[AWwrgwy]

yes.

Ya really think so?

Now, I'm sure it happened, but I tried and couldn't find any battles or major operations carried out by any CV/CV group in the European theater. (I'm sure someone will find one quick since I said this) So according to our arguments wrongway, mine from earlier about Berlin, which is more accurate for Strats than CV's, we should use the principle of ground based flak and the way it works from a totally different theater (which again, I couldn't find any major operations for) to dictate the effects of flak from a CV.

I'm sure I missed typing something in my thought line, but it's modeled wrong, or at least not well.

If flak was as good as it is in AH, we wouldn't have lost so many ships or men. RTHolmes has it right.

No.  I'm agreeing with you.  But the "Puffy Ack Problem" that is most prevalent in game is in regards to CV ack as I understand it.

Make puffy ack affect both friendly and enemy aircraft equally.  At least the "hard" guns.  After all, enemy fighters wouldn't fly into their own AAA either.  If you are flying after an enemy in proximity of friendly AAA you are susceptible to being hit.

Making "soft" guns affect friendlies would introduce griefing issues.



wrongway

[RTHolmes]

Ya really think so?

yeah the fire control computers were analogue computers using cogs and levers, they look like a bunch of big wood-fired kitchen ranges with brass knobs and dials on. not like modern multiple-CPU digital computers capable of giving accurate firing solutions on multiple cons in near-real time from sophisticated pinpoint radar system tracking data.

you had a bunch of blokes manually cranking dials to get a solution. if the con was travelling level at a constant speed for some time, a while later after some furious fiddling with levers and dials you would have a pretty good firing solution. if the con deviated during the track, or during the lead computing your shells would arrive 100s of yards off target.

bear in mind, even though the stats for late war USN proxy fused 5" look pretty promising, the majority of targets they were tracking were moving relatively slowly in a straight line directly towards the guns. theres a quote i cant find now which says something along the lines of "if the incoming aircraft changed alt by 100 yards, it was impossible to track." didnt matter much because the 40mms would get them as they got closer.

[RTHolmes]

Ive got a bunch of manuals and specs for the Mk.37 gun director on a drive I cant get to atm, so Ive had to hit the wiki ...

input came from the Director:



... and fed into the plotting room where the computer lived. this is THE most advanced fire control computer used in WWII, the MkI (drawing is the 1A but it looks similar):



it weighs 3500lb, operated by ?4 sailors.

because it was on a moving ship it needed input from a gyro, hence the attached Stable Element:



the computer generated control current for the servos in the gun turrets.


this very complex system could provide an accurate firing solution for 1 aerial target, and only as long as the target was maintaining a constant vector (speed and rate of climb) for 20-30s.

USS Missouri plotting room in operation:

[PropHawk]

Please just do away with it.
It does nothing to threatening airplanes (bombers, bomb-laden planes)
It kills the fight and at fun CV furballs forces the fight under 3K, while the attacking planes can freely go above 3K and pick.
It fires at you while you are well out of range it should stop at.

Please just do away with it or code it so it only fires at bombers.

A good compromise might be to make fewer auto ack of all kinds and have many more manned ack positions of all kinds. But do away with? I think I'm gonna die!
p.s. I do agree that it shouldn't be able to fire at you when it can't see you. Or when you are right above the carrier group. If we can't train our 5'' flak that AI's shouldn't be able to either. That's just

[RTHolmes]

this very complex system could provide an accurate firing solution for 1 aerial target, and only as long as the target was maintaining a constant vector (speed and rate of climb) for 20-30s.

I'm going to highlight this bit. to get an accurate solution on a fighter flying at full power at 12k, say 350TAS, the fighter has to be flying in a straight line for 20-30s. there is no way the very best systems available in late WWII could maintain "lock" on a fighter doing any kind of maneuvering in the way AH puffy does. a set of buffs on a bombing run on a CV, flying straight and level setting up its bombing run however would be a relatively easy target for this system.

[pwnorris]

Remember, not all shipborne AAA systems were created equal.

The Japanese systems lagged behind the US systems.  The best they could do in Midway, and possibly through the Guadacanal campaign, was to use their 5in guns to put up a barrage.  This meant they fired into a "box" that the incoming aircraft would have to fly through.  Once the attackers flew through the barrage, or flew around it, the Japanese had to fall back on their 25mm guns, and they had their own problems.

While it has its advantages, a real-world flack would make no distinction between friendly or enemy aircraft.  The USS Enterprise suffered several casualties when she triggered the proximity fuzes on shells fired from another ship.