Author Topic: Calculating Lead in Mils  (Read 2739 times)

Offline Saxman

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Calculating Lead in Mils
« on: July 24, 2010, 08:34:50 PM »
Now that we have sight reticles that are accurate to the mil across all aircraft, does anyone have a calculation that can be used to determine how many mils of lead would need to be given to a target?

I know it's a function of the target's deflection, range and airspeed, and the flight time of the round, but I'm not sure of the actual formula.

I'd REALLY like to be able to put together a "lead chart" for the Mk.VIII sight showing lead in mils at various target deflection angles, ranges and airspeeds.
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 09:30:01 PM »
You mean something like this?   :)



I'm working on a write-up using the WW2 fighter gunnery manual, and it will have tables like this for some of the common Mil sights (35/50/75/100/105).
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 09:32:25 PM »
doesn't anyone use the force anymore?

Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 09:48:16 PM »
Something like that, yeah, although that I can tailor specifically to the Mk.VIII sight with its 5mil increment marks.
More along the lines of::

Range (Yds)DeflectionAirspeedLead
20030250mph25mil

Obviously this isn't accurate and just an example of what I'm looking for. Like I said in the OP, I'm just looking for whatever formula is involved in calculating the estimates so I can put my own chart together.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 12:10:17 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Avanti

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 04:48:59 AM »
doesn't anyone use the force anymore?

na man
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 04:45:04 PM »
doesn't anyone use the force anymore?

since day one brother!   :D
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 05:07:16 PM »
Well given that we get an incredible amount of practice gunnery compared to real WW2 pilots, it's no wonder so many of us have used the force.

Saxman here is the formula for calculating lead in Mils, feel free to run the numbers and post a table.

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Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »
Do you have the ballistics chart for the M2 .50cal they reference as well? I think I'll need that, too, unless Aces High gives the .50cal a constant velocity regardless of range.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Baumer

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 09:38:13 PM »
Nope, I'd just use the range and speed they used in the example.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 10:16:54 PM »
Problem is I'm wanting to make something more comprehensive than a lead chart that only works when you're traveling at 455mph TAS and 333yds range (for one thing, my own convergence is at 200yds. This would be useless for me).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline potsNpans

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 07:45:38 PM »
Another article about sights from SimHQ that might be an interesting read also
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031b.html

Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 07:57:51 PM »
I've seen that site. The problem is it doesn't have the missing information I need to make my own lead tables (the velocity of the Browning .50cal at various ranges).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 09:00:27 PM »
I've seen that site. The problem is it doesn't have the missing information I need to make my own lead tables (the velocity of the Browning .50cal at various ranges).

I think a big part of the reason those aren't easy to find, is that they're going to be highly variable. 

I think the best you'll be able to do is get a basic, generic trajectory table from a common, modern firearm and base your tables on that.  I'd guess the 30-06 isn't probably that far off, but I'd have to look into it to know for sure.  I think it has similar muzzle velocity, but I have no idea how similar the ballistic coefficients are...

Bullet velocity is normally measured near the muzzle, and sometimes you can find information for common rounds, out of common firearms, out at various distances.  Even then, they need to be taken with a healthy bit of speculation.  For the 30-06, you should be able to find some rough velocities out at common deer hunting ranges.  Don't take them as "gospel" though.

In AH, I'd think some extensive use of the dot target coupled with the film viewer would give you a good idea of what the "times" would be. 

There are so many variables at work that it's pretty pointless (and highly likely to be inaccurate anyway) to get that in-depth on a particular round.  Just at the "gun end" there are a lot of variables that can effect velocity, starting with barrel length (and how it's mounted), and even action-type.  In the round itself, the shape of the bullet, weight and speed all effect its trajectory.  How the bullet fits the chamber even has an effect, which isn't minor.  Bullets are mass produced to be on the "small side", while actions are mass-produced to be spacious enough to allow the largest commonly produced bullets to fit.  Sure there are tolerances to follow, but there are allowable deviations.  That means that almost all bullets are too small to fit the chamber ideally. Two bullets, identical in components but seated differently, won't fly the same.  Two identical bullets, but fired out of two guns built by the same manufacturer won't fly quite the same...

Rifle manufacturers don't sell pre-sighted rifles because there's no way for them to compensate for the variables at hand.  They leave that up to the guy that buys the rifle and ammo.  They'll provide a sample trajectory table, but if you "live" by that table, you'll "die" by it too.

Even in the game, I suspect you'll find that as soon as the muzzle is pointed up or down a few degrees, it'll throw your table off.  And if the altitude isn't always the same, that will throw it off too.  Or if somebody fires while their wings are banked.  Or while at anything other than 1G.  If those things don't throw your table off, there's something wrong with the way the ballistics are modeled.
MtnMan

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Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 09:02:25 PM »
Already tried using the target + film viewer combo. Target doesn't show in the film viewer.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 09:17:07 PM »
Already tried using the target + film viewer combo. Target doesn't show in the film viewer.

How about parking a friendly right next to a hanger, so that from the ground you can fire at the hanger?  That way, you'd know the range to the hanger.

Just guessing on an idea that might work.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson