Author Topic: Calculating Lead in Mils  (Read 2732 times)

Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2010, 06:20:08 AM »
Yea, it's probably close enough anyway.

I could probably make it closer by using more data points (IE, every 50-100yds rather than ever 200). I just used the 200yd intervals since that seems to be where most people set their guns (I hear more guys use 200, 400, 600, etc. as their convergence than 250, 300, 500, etc).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2010, 06:45:18 PM »
Disregard, I noticed a MAJOR error in the chart I must fix....
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 06:48:46 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2010, 09:05:16 PM »
I could probably make it closer by using more data points (IE, every 50-100yds rather than ever 200). I just used the 200yd intervals since that seems to be where most people set their guns (I hear more guys use 200, 400, 600, etc. as their convergence than 250, 300, 500, etc).

I think they do that because the icons counters switch at 200, 400, 600, etc. 

It's a shame, since 300 and 500 are "sweet-spots", and from what I've read, 300 was a pretty commonly used setting historically.

I'm curious to see what you come up with, because I'd like to see how close it coincides to what I've seen on running shots on deer.  I'd be surprised if you come up with something much different than I've figured out for my .270 at 100 and 200 yards, and my muzzleloader at 50 and 100 yards.  The .270 is shooting slightly faster than the .50's (at just over 3000 FPS MV, 1800 FPS AT 200 yds), and the .54 flintlock is probably not too far off of the cannons (1800 FPS MV, roughly 1/2 that at 100 yds).

While I've taken the time to figure those points out for 90 degree shots on "full-speed" deer and coyote (about 35 mph), I actually do better if I block those ideas out of my mind and just watch the target very intently.  It's too hard for me to figure out the combination of angle (they're never really running at 90 degrees), speed (they're never really at full speed) and range (they're never really at 50, 100, or 200 yards, and even if they are, it takes me too long to really estimate that accurately; by the time I do that, the shot opportunity is past).  If I have time to range them, they're not running.

An exception is when I'm a "stander" for drives.  In that case, I take to time to range landmarks, and figure that aspect out.  Then remind myself of the leads needed for a full-speed target at 90 degrees.  In the end though, when it comes down to the shot, there's not a lot of time to think about those things.  The biggest questions I'm thinking about are "is it safe to shoot" and "is it in range?".  Beyond that, I just intently concentrate on the target.  I think that's how quarterbacks do it too.

I'm very interested in what you come up with.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Saxman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2010, 11:29:06 PM »
Ok, here it is. It's not pretty, but should be very comprehensive. This JUST covers a range of 200yds, however I can very easily adapt it to other ranges, as well. You'll want to R-Click -> View, or save the image as it's very large so doesn't fit the window. It covers a wide range of both target and shooter airspeeds, from 200mph TAS up to 450mph TAS in 50mph increments. Note that the average round velocity figures factor in the shooter's airspeed.

Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2010, 10:57:25 AM »

Have you had a chance to put any of it to the test?

It's intriguing, but it seems like you'd need a computer running in the background to sort through the numbers before you fire.  Don't get me wrong, my intent is not to "attack" your idea at all, I just have some questions on your thought process.  Nobody else is posting/asking questions, and I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you or that I'm not interested.

For starter's I'm unsure of why you'd adjust the velocity of the round based on your forward speed.  If you and your target are flying the same speed (lets use 200yds and 200mph) the apparent velocity of the round is the same as if you were stationary.  I think I know where you're going with it, but holy cow will that get complicated!  On the 200 yard, 200 mph shot, how far does the bullet travel from the time it was fired until it impacts?  More than 200 yards, because the target is moving away, even if it's apparent motion is zero from your perspective.  That's a small factor, but it matters more for longer shots, and when the apparent speeds change.  How far does the bullet fly on a 1000yd head on shot with both pilots doing 350mph?  Or, on a 20 degree head-on deflection shot, what is the lead required if you're flying 300, and your target is doing 200, and he's 400 feet lower than you?

A course in estimating target speed may be a prerequisite.

So far, your chart appears much simpler, but I'm a little unclear how you intend it to work.  If you and your target are both going 200mph with him in a bit of a bank 200yds in front of you, with you matching his bank, how does his speed factor in?  His speed would be almost an apparent 0mph from your perspective. 

You'd still need to lead him, of course, but how much?  He'd be holding at a "consistent" point on your nose, so there's no apparent "crossing" deflection.  Is the lead required based on time/distance, or G-force (you'll need to fire at greater than 1G unless you pull the stick and then unload the G's).  Would the same exact shot (at the same range) but with both of you at twice the forward speed require the same lead?  Or double?  Or other?  What about twice the speed, and twice the range, and twice the bank angle? 

How does the bank angle factor in?  In a near 90degree bank (lufberry shot) the upward cant of your guns is now translating to "lead", and you've lost the tilt that's supposed to be opposing gravity.  Hence, your shots in a left bank will trend too far to the left, and low.  With a chart only looking at speed and deflection angle, would the mathematical lead required for a 30 degree deflection shot be equal for a target regardless of bank? 

So, on a given 30 degree deflection shot at "x" distance and speed, would the lead be the same if your following your target through an immelmann vs. say a flat turn?  Would the lead be the same on the "upward" side of a loop vs. the "downward" side?  On the downward side, the cant of your guns is actually going to accelerate the apparent effect of gravity, rather than oppose it, since the guns are now tilted "down".  The bullets trajectory would reverse from your point of view.  They'd appear to curve upward rather than downward (this also happens when you fire with your nose straight up).

What about firing on an opponent that's diving away?  If you tilt your nose up or down, your bullets will hit high.  Even on a 0 degree deflection shot, with both pilots "wings level", same speed (but accelerating) and maintaining 200yd separation, in a 45 degree dive you'd need to aim low to hit him (assuming 200yd convergence, because otherwise it'll get too complicated; for the same 200yd shot with 300yd convergence you'd want to hold right on him).  Now, since he's diving and you need to hold under him, you're leading him, but the apparent deflection is zero...
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline jamdive

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2010, 03:12:09 PM »
Dear mtnman,

Please stop shooting me down.

Regards, Jam.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 08:27:57 PM »
Dear mtnman,

Please stop shooting me down.

Regards, Jam.

I would never shoot you down Jam!  If you think i have, you must be mistaken!
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Fox

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2010, 09:36:21 AM »
I have a program that will calculate external ballistics giving time of flight (among other things) for various distances.  The program has the following limitations:

BC <1.2
Max wind speed 30 mph
Max altitude 15000 feet
Max bullet weight 1200 grains

With these limitations, the only rounds in AH that can be calculated are the vehicle mounted machine guns.  If you want me to run any numbers, let me know which one and I'll do it for you.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: Calculating Lead in Mils
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2010, 12:47:59 PM »
Now that we have sight reticles that are accurate to the mil across all aircraft, does anyone have a calculation that can be used to determine how many mils of lead would need to be given to a target?

I know it's a function of the target's deflection, range and airspeed, and the flight time of the round, but I'm not sure of the actual formula.

I'd REALLY like to be able to put together a "lead chart" for the Mk.VIII sight showing lead in mils at various target deflection angles, ranges and airspeeds.

Saxman,
wouldn't such a gunsite only be applicable to targets flying in a straight line? Once you start to turn, the quired lead (at the same distance to target, and speed of target) would change. And the change would be dramatic. Crossing shots on level flying bombers would be a good application for the gun sight you describe. Is that the objective?  :salute

Who is John Galt?