After Action Critique Wanted.

[Muzzy]

Here's a situation I'd like to get some feedback on.  I'm in the MA flying a Spit XVI over hilly terrain at about 4k alt. I encounter a co-alt Corsair.  We merge, I immelman and reverse on him and gain a very slight angle and alt advantage on him. He starts into a downward left turn spiral which I do my best to try and follow. I realize that we're going to get low and slow, and I'm not sure if I can stay with him. I don't have the ammo to waste on snapshots (which I suck at). I still have a slight altitude advantage though, and I'm trying to decide what to do next.  Unfortunately a P47 came in and dusted me before we could resolve the issue.  (To his credit, my opponent pm'ed me later and said he protested to the Jug pilot for butting in on a perfectly good duel).

My question is: what would you have done in the same situation?  Again, it's a left turn spiralling downward, corsair vs spitsteen, and the spit has a slight alt advantage.  Do you follow him down to the deck, extend flaps and try to out turn him?  Do you straighten out to maintain your alt advantage, wait for him to get slower than you and dive on him?  Or something I haven't figured out yet?

Opinions?

-Muzzy

[bj229r]

I would think the guy in the F4 is delaying the inevitable by going down in the weeds, hoping maybe you'd do something wrong and he could get a shot on you. Theres a couple scenarios where he can outmaneuver you, but down in the weeds they are harder to create, I'd think. I'd sure follow him down

(At any rate, if you have a good fight, live or die, that is a reward in and of itself )

[Ghastly]

(Disclaimer - I'm by no means the best pilot in AH, just perhaps above average)

But I do fly the Corsair almost exclusively, and it depends.  You left 2 important things out of your synopsis - Did he reverse, and which Corsair? Assuming -1A since that's mostly what's flown, if you reversed, and he did not, and he had a significant speed advantage post-merge, then you want to climb away into his six to keep him from zooming up under you - if he lets you that is. The 2 aircraft are so close in speed that any speed advantage means you won't catch him if he straightens out, and while 4 K isn't enough altitude to build speed from best turn rate (about 150) to where the Corsair handles well and the Spit 16 doesn't (somewhere over around 320), if he stayed at near corner speed speed during the merge and is drawing you into a wide left hand spiral at much above 300 then you're dealing with someone who knows how to fly his aircraft very well against yours, and you'd probably end up in his kill bag.

If on the other hand if he's gotten co-E or less with you during the merge, then I'd be inclined to suggest going nose low to no more than Vc and cutting the corner to get onto his six.  Once you're on his six he's got real problems, as your aircraft is just as fast, and retains E far better while you jockey for the shot.   

What I'm not quite sure of because I haven't yet had (or taken) time to do the appropriate testing is who has the actual advantage if you allow the engagement to devolve to a pure angles fight (circle on the deck), given that the Corsair has maneuvering flaps, and the Spit doesn't.  Based upon anecdotal observation of my own sorties it seems to depend on the pilot and/or fuel states in that match up.  One problem is that so many of the lesser skilled pilots gravitate to the 16 that when I win one, I can't tell how much was because of the aircraft match up, and how much because I might be getting more from my plane than he is from his, even though his might be more capable.

<S>

[Muzzy]

If I recall correctly he didn't reverse. I had a brief look at his six when I came over the top but he did a break turn before I could get a shot, and then we were into the spiral. I got my nose on him a couple of times, but the g-load was too high for a clean shot. E-state was pretty even fairly early on in the fight (about the same speed although I did have a slight alt edge).  I was inclined to let him continue spiralling down until I had enough separation to drop onto his tail, but by the time I thought of that we might already have been too low.  Wish I'd filmed this one.

(Disclaimer - I'm by no means the best pilot in AH, just perhaps above average)

But I do fly the Corsair almost exclusively, and it depends.  You left 2 important things out of your synopsis - Did he reverse, and which Corsair? Assuming -1A since that's mostly what's flown, if you reversed, and he did not, and he had a significant speed advantage post-merge, then you want to climb away into his six to keep him from zooming up under you - if he lets you that is. The 2 aircraft are so close in speed that any speed advantage means you won't catch him if he straightens out, and while 4 K isn't enough altitude to build speed from best turn rate (about 150) to where the Corsair handles well and the Spit 16 doesn't (somewhere over around 320), if he stayed at near corner speed speed during the merge and is drawing you into a wide left hand spiral at much above 300 then you're dealing with someone who knows how to fly his aircraft very well against yours, and you'd probably end up in his kill bag.

If on the other hand if he's gotten co-E or less with you during the merge, then I'd be inclined to suggest going nose low to no more than Vc and cutting the corner to get onto his six.  Once you're on his six he's got real problems, as your aircraft is just as fast, and retains E far better while you jockey for the shot.   

What I'm not quite sure of because I haven't yet had (or taken) time to do the appropriate testing is who has the actual advantage if you allow the engagement to devolve to a pure angles fight (circle on the deck), given that the Corsair has maneuvering flaps, and the Spit doesn't.  Based upon anecdotal observation of my own sorties it seems to depend on the pilot and/or fuel states in that match up.  One problem is that so many of the lesser skilled pilots gravitate to the 16 that when I win one, I can't tell how much was because of the aircraft match up, and how much because I might be getting more from my plane than he is from his, even though his might be more capable.

<S>

[BaldEagl]

I fly Spits all th time and have met more than my fair share of F4U's.  It sounds like you had two choices, both of which you've mentioned.

The first was to hold or even gain a bit more alt while letting him descend.  If he stayed down then you'd have to dive WEP on and the chase would be on.  Hard to tell who would win in that scenario as he's likely have a bit more speed than you.  I like this option if I see the F4U diving into a bowl in the terrain and I know he's going to have to come back up.  I'll just head toward the point he has to go over the hill and hope to catch him there.  If the terrain is level then maintaining alt may simply let him get away.

You can also try to force a turn.  I chased an A Hog last night and kept pinging him from 800 out but he never took the bait.  He just kept running.

The second option is to follow him down.  In this scenario you have to maintain closure so you're already faster than he is.  What you have to be careful of is that he rudders hard then pops the flaps forcing an overshoot.  Even cross-controlling at max the Spit won't slow down like a Hog.  If he does this you need to climb over him.  He's given up E in the hope of forcing the overshoot and he won't be able to climb after you.  If he doesn't drop flaps to force an overshoot eventually he will as he nears corner velocity.  Hogs in this state are extremely dangerous as they can out-turn you.  In either case maintain E and climb over him.  He'll have given up E and won't be able to stay with you for long.  You'll want to make a series of tight BnZ type passes to bleed off the rest of his E then saddle up and finish him off.

If you do get low and slow with him you're going to have to manage both throttle and flaps so as not to overshoot.

If he never does pop the flaps then he doesn't know what he's doing and should be an easy kill.

[guncrasher]

Set up one of the buttons on your stick to shoot bb's only and shoot short burts to make him nervous save your cannon for the kill.  You did everything right, he tried to make you overshoot. Only thing you didn't do is look behind you, always be aware of other planes coming in to help. a spit should outurn all f4u's except for a few great players that will kill ya in an instant.  .



Semp

[Muzzy]

It's a shame more people don't post reports like this here. You guys are a wealth of information.  

I was going to mention that this fight took place in the "hills, valleys and plateaus" terrain map that we've been dealing with this week (not the pizza world map, the one in the other arena).  I guess that's one of the reasons I was thinking of staying high.  I figured if he spiralled down into the valley then he'd have more trouble maneuvering than I would.

Oh, and it was a right turn spiral not a left. heh.

Thanks for all the advice guys.  It's been really educational.

[Big Rat]

Muzzy,

One thing to keep in mind when fighting.  Altitude is options.  If my opponent wants to give me the high ground, I'll take it gladly.  As mostly a hog pilot and trainer I do my darndest to avoid giving up my alt if at all possible.  My hog climbs terrible and accelerates just as bad.  So to be low is in a bad place.  If he's turning while going down even better, let him go and stay on your perch building up E.  The hogs weakness is fighting up but you have to beware of it's zoom climb which is very good.  So you keep them below you and keep them dodging enough not to be able to gain a whole lot of E.  This is the key to fighting a hog.  If my opponent is in a better position, then I want them to follow me down into the weeds and give up that perch, this way I'm not fighting up and have a much better chance of reversing the situation. Also if you kept that perch you might also have been better able to deal with the 47, as the hog may have put himself out of position to interfere in a fight above him.

 
BigRat     

[Rolex]

The strengths of the Spitfire include climb rate and acceleration. The weaknesses of the Corsair are climb rate and acceleration. You have a double advantage by doing as BigRat suggests. Also, the magnificent roll rate of the Spit XVI helps you get a guns solution as you push the attack from above.

I also think a new player to Aces High getting into a slow turn fight with a Corsair is like sticking a foot in quicksand. 

[Muzzy]

Well it's nice to know that I had the right inclination (to stay high) if not the amount of time to execute it properly.  I'd actually started to pull out of the spiral and straighten out a bit when I got BnZ'ed by the jug.


Dang.  It woulda worked.

-Muzzy

[TheRapier]

I would echo BigRat. If your opponent wants to give away energy without being forced to, that's a good thing for you. As long as he can't run away from you, losing alt is the same as putting himself in a hole. I find that patience is a virtue when the bad guy is making a mistake. You can then kill them at your leisure.

I'd also say, that if you maintained E, it would help you to deal with unwanted wildcards coming in high. I wouldn't ever, ever, ever, count on a "duel" situation in the MA. Better to be cautious and alive, than assume and be dead.

[humble]

Anytime I see a hog go "stupid" the hairs on the back of my neck twitch....

It's hard to tell if you've got an ace looking to set you up or a relatively inexperienced stick. As others already mentioned keep your advantage and attack from the perch. The hog is one of the few planes that can actually give the spitty a match in a stall fight. My normal tendency when I see someone dive down like that is to mirror the dive from a higher alt and then break up and away from the break turn. This is the historically correct move used by Robert Johnson and Egon Meyer (among others) who used the roll rate and control surface authority (P47 and 190 respectively) to defeat bandits with a higher sustained turn rate. The move up and away greats displacement and then they pull thru in the vertical (inverted) to gain lead. This uses the much faster roll rate to change direction (in vertical) while conserving E and maintaining visibility on the target...

[CAP1]

Here's a situation I'd like to get some feedback on.  I'm in the MA flying a Spit XVI over hilly terrain at about 4k alt. I encounter a co-alt Corsair.  We merge, I immelman and reverse on him and gain a very slight angle and alt advantage on him. He starts into a downward left turn spiral which I do my best to try and follow. I realize that we're going to get low and slow, and I'm not sure if I can stay with him. I don't have the ammo to waste on snapshots (which I suck at). I still have a slight altitude advantage though, and I'm trying to decide what to do next.  Unfortunately a P47 came in and dusted me before we could resolve the issue.  (To his credit, my opponent pm'ed me later and said he protested to the Jug pilot for butting in on a perfectly good duel).

My question is: what would you have done in the same situation?  Again, it's a left turn spiralling downward, corsair vs spitsteen, and the spit has a slight alt advantage.  Do you follow him down to the deck, extend flaps and try to out turn him?  Do you straighten out to maintain your alt advantage, wait for him to get slower than you and dive on him?  Or something I haven't figured out yet?

Opinions?

-Muzzy

i tend to not follow people through those types of maneuvers, as i always think they're setting me up for somrthing. i go level, and maintain my speed and distance behind them, and see what they choose to do next.

[CAP1]

Set up one of the buttons on your stick to shoot bb's only and shoot short burts to make him nervous save your cannon for the kill.  You did everything right, he tried to make you overshoot. Only thing you didn't do is look behind you, always be aware of other planes coming in to help. a spit should outurn all f4u's except for a few great players that will kill ya in an instant.  .



Semp

if he's a vet stick, that won't work. i've been on both ends of that.

 

[Muzzy]

I've found that you can sometimes tell by the sound of the guns whether it's BB's or cannon.