A case for the P-63

[Pigslilspaz]

Asking for it to be added when the US planeset is well rounded and many key aircraft that played major roles in WWII are still absent is absurd.

It was flown only by the Soviets. It wouldn't fill out the U.S. plane set. Read more.

[Ack-Ack]

Nationalism is evil.  Patriotism is good, but Nationalism should be opposed always.

As far as the P-63, it has practically no place in a WWII sim.  The aircraft was a complete non-factor.  Asking for it to be added when the US planeset is well rounded and many key aircraft that played major roles in WWII are still absent is absurd.

I really don't see this as an addition to the US plane set since it was used by the Soviets and it would compliment the existing Soviet plane set.


ack-ack

[SunBat]

I really don't see this as an addition to the US plane set since it was used by the Soviets and it would compliment the existing Soviet plane set.


ack-ack

You're wasting your breath.  His nationalism won't let him see past the "P".

[tf15pin]

If I remember correctly when the P-63 was discussed in the past it was noted that it did not "officially" see combat because it was given to the Russians to use exclusively in the fight against Japan that the soviets were expected to begin shortly after the defeat of Germany. How many people believe that Uncle Joe did exactly as he was told and only allowed the P-63 to be deployed in the far east?

[Vinkman]

If I remember correctly when the P-63 was discussed in the past it was noted that it did not "officially" see combat because it was given to the Russians to use exclusively in the fight against Japan that the soviets were expected to begin shortly after the defeat of Germany. How many people believe that Uncle Joe did exactly as he was told and only allowed the P-63 to be deployed in the far east?

This point always starts a lot of controversy, because of the assumptions and rumors around P-63 use in lieu of hard evidence. But since the P-63 significance and use, or lack there of,  by the soviets is always the reason given for non-inclusion, I will contribute the one piece of hard evidence I could find.

In "Attack of the Airacobras" by Dimitri Loza [ don't have it handy, so I'll edit and add Page ref later] he Chronicles the use of the Bell aircraft against the Germans on the eastern front, mostly the P-39. The book quotes from fighter pilot Alexander Pokryshkin, and records showing periodic squadron strengths of operational aircraft, which at one point in 1944 for squadrons fighting on the Eastern front, shows the P-63 is listed as making up 45% of operational aircraft in the squad, and the P-39 making up the rest. Best I could find so far.

[Masherbrum]

If I remember correctly when the P-63 was discussed in the past it was noted that it did not "officially" see combat because it was given to the Russians to use exclusively in the fight against Japan that the soviets were expected to begin shortly after the defeat of Germany. How many people believe that Uncle Joe did exactly as he was told and only allowed the P-63 to be deployed in the far east?

4 GIAP was an "Official P-39 Squadron", while actually flying P-63's in 1944.

I'd rather see this, than another Yak.

[gyrene81]

Hop in the 39Q and have fun with it

Guppy, that's pretty much all Vinkman flies.

Note: please do not hijack this thread with discussions of your pet or 'more worthy' aircraft. Those should be discussed in seperate threads. Thank you. 

So we can't bring up other "pets" in your pet discussion?    I know you're tired of being caught low and slow in your favorite ride against the Spixteens and 190s, but honestly, the P-63 export version was mediocre at best. By the time it started being shipped out, the Russians had already started gaining air superiority with their own fighters.

[tf15pin]

Were all P-63s produced with the M10 cannon (some type of modified M4 I assume) capable of holding 58 rounds of 37mm or was it just a subset of the A series? Also, would we be looking for the A or C series? The production numbers are pretty closely divided between these variants with the C having some engine upgrades and wing modifications.

While there are some P-39 experts in the area, does anyone know what the historical roll rate was on the P-39 and how it stacks up compared to what we have in game? The in game 39 seems to really suffer in roll rate when it is slow (<150). It almost helps when I get a flap shot out so I at least have good roll rate in one direction.

[Soulyss]

Were all P-63s produced with the M4 capable of holding 58 rounds or was it just a subset of the A series? Also, would we be looking for the A or C series? The production numbers are pretty closely divided between these variants with the C having some engine upgrades and wing modifications.

While there are some P-39 experts in the area, does anyone know what the historical roll rate was on the P-39 and how it stacks up compared to what we have in game? The in game 39 seems to really suffer in roll rate when it is slow (<150). It almost helps when I get a flap shot out so I at least have good roll rate in one direction.

Damn... I knew it was too soon to pack up my P-39/63 book.

If I remember correctly the P-39 wasn't known for having a stellar rate of roll.  I'm in the process of moving over the next few weeks and if you're still interested shoot me a PM early next month and I'll be happy to go back and check and see if I can find anything.

[Traveler]

Kingcobras, attaining 421 mph (678 km/h) at 24,100 ft (7,300 m).

Deliveries of production P-63As began in October 1943. The USAAF concluded the Kingcobra was inferior to the Mustang, and declined to order larger quantities. American allies, particularly the Soviet Union, had a great need for fighter aircraft, however, and the Soviets were already the largest users of the Airacobra. Therefore, the Kingcobra was ordered into production to be delivered under Lend-Lease. In February 1944, the Soviet government sent a highly experienced test pilot, Andrey G. Kochetkov, and an aviation engineer, Fyodor P. Suprun, to the Bell factories to participate in the development of the first production variant, the P-63A. Initially ignored by Bell engineers, Kochetkov's expert testing of the machine's spin characteristics (which led to airframe buckling) eventually led to a significant Soviet role in the development. After flat spin recovery proved impossible, and upon Kochetkov's making a final recommendation that pilots should bail out upon entering such a spin, he received a commendation from the Irving Parachute Company. The Kingcobra’s maximum aft CG was moved ahead to facilitate recovery from spins.

P-63A-8, SN 269261, was extensively tested in what was then the world's largest wind tunnel. Soviet input was significant. With the Soviet Union being the largest buyer of the aircraft, Bell was quick to implement their suggestions. The vast majority of the changes in the A sub-variants were a direct result of Soviet input, e.g. increased pilot armor and fuselage hardpoint on the A-5, underwing hardpoints and extra fuel tanks on the A-6, etc. The Soviet Union even experimented with ski landing gear for the P-63A-6, but this never reached production. Most significantly, Soviet input resulted in moving the main cannon forward, favorably changing the center of gravity, and increasing its ammo load from 30 to 58 rounds for the A-9 variant. The P-63 had an impressive roll rate, besting the P-47, P-40, N1K2 and P-51 with a rate of 110° per second at 275 mph (443 km/h).

[321BAR]

M18
Yak-3


but the P63 would really be nice

[Bronk]

Guppy, that's pretty much all Vinkman flies.


So we can't bring up other "pets" in your pet discussion?    I know you're tired of being caught low and slow in your favorite ride against the Spixteens and 190s, but honestly, the P-63 export version was mediocre at best. By the time it started being shipped out, the Russians had already started gaining air superiority with their own fighters.

LMAO here is another take...

If one considers 420 mph at 21,000 feet poor performance. Let's face it, 95% of all engagements in AH2 are below 20,000 feet.

The answer to the La-7 is the P-63A Kingcobra. Similar climb and low-level speed, but the P-63 is nearly as maneuverable as the FM-2. Add four .50 cal MGs and a 37mm cannon.

These two fighters would be very equal except that the La-7 could not afford to turn-fight with the P-63, and the P-63 has a big range advantage, plus the ability to haul a 500 pound bomb (or a drop tank).

So, how fast does the P-63A climb? Well, for comparison, let's look at the F6F-5. It requires 7.7 minutes to climb to 15,000 feet. In contrast, the P-63A can get to 25,000 feet in 7.3 minutes! The P-51D requires near twice as long (13 minutes) to reach 30,000 feet.

When the Soviets first began flying the P-63, they found the tail to be weaker than that of the P-39. Bell developed a kit for strengthening the tail and Bell technicians made field modifications to those planes in service. That change was immediately incorporated into the production line as well.

Pilots who flew the P-63, and had time in the other major U.S. types, generally agreed that the P-63 was far and away the best performer at low to medium altitudes. Not surprising, the pilots flying it at the Joint Fighter Conference differed from rave reviews to outright dislike (the only thing the JFC ever proved was that every monkey prefers his own banana).

Since more than 3,300 P-63s were built, and it saw combat (with the Free French and Soviets) in far greater numbers than the F4U-1C or Ta 152H, I think it would be an excellent candidate for inclusion in the AH2 plane-set someday.

My regards,

Widewing

Yea I'll go with widewing's opinion.

[Bronk]

Damn... I knew it was too soon to pack up my P-39/63 book.

If I remember correctly the P-39 wasn't known for having a stellar rate of roll.  I'm in the process of moving over the next few weeks and if you're still interested shoot me a PM early next month and I'll be happy to go back and check and see if I can find anything.

The 39 was noted for exceptionally light controls. I think I read somewhere that is why some pilots got into trouble with it... it doesn't like ham fisted pilots.

[Greziz]

Vink man very good post one of the best worded wishes I have seen in a long time. I am currently stalling getting back into aces high as I had to cancel due to loss of wallet but I have since recovered from the ordeal but simply have been way to addicted to sc2 to bother coming back but if the king cobra were brought out I would so be back with a frothy smile as my addiction reset to maximum.

[Vinkman]

This point always starts a lot of controversy, because of the assumptions and rumors around P-63 use in lieu of hard evidence. But since the P-63 significance and use, or lack there of,  by the soviets is always the reason given for non-inclusion, I will contribute the one piece of hard evidence I could find.

In "Attack of the Airacobras" by Dimitri Loza [ don't have it handy, so I'll edit and add Page ref later] he Chronicles the use of the Bell aircraft against the Germans on the eastern front, mostly the P-39. The book quotes from fighter pilot Alexander Pokryshkin, and records showing periodic squadron strengths of operational aircraft, which at one point in 1944 for squadrons fighting on the Eastern front, shows the P-63 is listed as making up 45% operational aircraft in the squad, and the P-39 making up the rest. Best I could find so far.

I found that reference and Wanted to update this post. But I can't modify the original, so here it is corrected.

In "Attack of the Airacobras" by Dimitri Loza [P. 317-318] he Chronicles the use of the Bell aircraft against the Germans on the eastern front, mostly the P-39. The book quotes from fighter pilot Alexander Pokryshkin, and records showing periodic squadron strengths of operational aircraft, which at one point in 1944 for squadrons fighting the encircled German troups in Berlin, shows the P-63 is listed as making up 29 of 88 operational aircraft in the squad, and the P-39 making up the rest. Best I could find so far.