Iranian Unmanned Bomber

[Muzzy]

Plus we suck at nation-building.  Truly.  Bombing them into oblivion is one thing, building them back up so they won't come back at you is another.

[Changeup]

Plus we suck at nation-building.  Truly.  Bombing them into oblivion is one thing, building them back up so they won't come back at you is another.

Ummm, Germany and Japan didn't turn out to terribly bad....at least they haven't started any World Wars lately.....just saying

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[Muzzy]

Ummm, Germany and Japan didn't turn out to terribly bad....at least they haven't started any World Wars lately.....just saying

Changeup

Yeah I was gonna mention those two, but it helps when you've got the guilt of genocide or the cultural fear of nuclear war embedded into you.

[Reaper90]

PS -No one on this board is privy to classified information between countries intel agencies...nor are they privy to conversations regarding threats to neighboring countries abroad.  It is entertaining to see how many believe what they read on the internet and newspapers..no one really knows what any of them know..I guess Britany Spears IS pregnant with a martian baby...

Amen. I always get a chuckle when I hear some blow-hard "Monday Morning quarterback" yammering on about "wars based on lies and faked intelligence" or any such nonsense. Many of today's "facts" almost always turn out to be the stuff of comedy years later.

I do know (based on the media at the time, as much as you can call that 'fact') that prior to the Gulf War both houses of Congress, both sides of the aisle, our military and government intel agencies as well as those of almost every 'friendly' neighboring country to Iraq as well as their heads of states ALL were very sure of the evidence supporting the existance of WMD's in Iraq. It wasn't until they couldn't be found that there was every a question. But they've never found Jimmy Hoffa either, does that mean he never existed? You give someone months and months to hide/move/dispose of something in an area as large as Iraq and you'll NEVER find it, and that problem is only compounded byt he existance of neighboring states like Syria that would have been more than happy to help with his efforts to conceal the "evidence." Saddam's refusal to cooperate with inspections didn't help his case for there not being any WMD's, either.

But that's neither here nor there, at this point. WMD's were only one part of the equation that lead to that war.

[Reaper90]

Yep, and the people really responsible would probably escape to a safe place while the people that given a choice would just go about their business and do non of the above would pay the price.  That is the paradox in all this.  Every one calls for the death of the people that are being forced (if what we claim their government to be is true) to behave a certain way but not the leaders.  Why not just take out the leaders that we helped in one way or another put in place?

Well, I was speaking figuratively, but I'm completely down with your approach.

[Reaper90]

Isn't that Iran's idea too?  Actually, the only way to bring people together is to eliminate religions first.  As long as my god is real and yours is false, and your ancestors killed his son, we will never be in peace.  There will always be a reason to fight and it will be brought up every time our leaders decide we need to kill each other so their corporations can make a dollar or two.  See, Reaper90 was right about what he said about the average people.  However, those attributes apply to our leaders also.  They are in it for them selves too.

^ THIS

There is no way you'll even convince people who are on the religeous fringes to give up 4 or 5 thousand years of their culture and beliefs in the name of "global unification."

"So that some dude in 50 years can live on the moon I have to give up spiritual salvation?" LOL You're more likely to sell snow to Eskimos.

And as much as I despise the Imperial Federal Government of the United States of Amerika, I trust it INFINITELY more than the United Nations, the poster child for corruption, greed, ineffectiveness and waste. The UN makes the Gambino Family look like the Better Business Bureau.

I'll second the notion that everybody leaves everybody else alone, until such time that someone does something to deliberately hurt us or our well-being, or generally acts in a manner that cannot be tolerated (that whole genocide thing). Then it's "game on."

[Reaper90]

Reaper, Im not picking on your quote, rather using it to illustrate a point:  It seems that all countries have their failures, modesties, inconsistencies and poor examples of government.  As I read these posts, its interesting that what gets mentioned are the exceptions, not the rules.  As an example, there is nothing wrong with capitalism.  It works great...until it's exploited by a few that seek ways to make it work unbalanced in their favor...but that is nothing new...that is humanity and its failure.  Its no different that Islam...very few Muslims are extremeists right?  But the few that are seem to be getting all the attention for the damage they create.  No, I am not Muslim....lol...again, an analogy.

I agree, and have freinds and clients that are of the Muslim faith. I know it only takes the msguided acts of a few to attract a light that makes many look bad, perhaps wrongfully.

The problems I have, though, are not so much that there are extremists and crazies, every group has those. It's the actions of the others. Better yet, the inaction. The silence. The failure to universally denounce the acts of others. In many Muslim nations, the idea of a suicide bomber killing civilians is still a popular one, and accepted as a legitimate action by a large percentage of the populations. You think the 9/11 bombers are considered "bad guys" by the average person in Yemen and Saudi Arabia? Doubt it. I still remember the video feed of people cheering and dancing in the streets in the Palestinian territories when the news of the 9/11 attacks was first broadcast. Strange how those videos disappeared from the news broadcasts very quickly.

[Changeup]

Amen. I always get a chuckle when I hear some blow-hard "Monday Morning quarterback" yammering on about "wars based on lies and faked intelligence" or any such nonsense. Many of today's "facts" almost always turn out to be the stuff of comedy years later.

I do know (based on the media at the time, as much as you can call that 'fact') that prior to the Gulf War both houses of Congress, both sides of the aisle, our military and government intel agencies as well as those of almost every 'friendly' neighboring country to Iraq as well as their heads of states ALL were very sure of the evidence supporting the existance of WMD's in Iraq. It wasn't until they couldn't be found that there was every a question. But they've never found Jimmy Hoffa either, does that mean he never existed? You give someone months and months to hide/move/dispose of something in an area as large as Iraq and you'll NEVER find it, and that problem is only compounded byt he existance of neighboring states like Syria that would have been more than happy to help with his efforts to conceal the "evidence." Saddam's refusal to cooperate with inspections didn't help his case for there not being any WMD's, either.

But that's neither here nor there, at this point. WMD's were only one part of the equation that lead to that war.

Agreed....the sad truth is that Obama made some promises exactly like every other 1st term POTUS before him, then, when he was elected, he got to actually SEE what was behind Door #1 and guess what?  Bobby Barker yelled, "Hey Obama, COME ON DOWN!!!!"  Obama suddenly wasn't excited to keep promises he made with half of the information he needed to make them.  No American citizen gets to see what's really behind Door #1....we should quit acting like we have.

[Changeup]

I agree, and have freinds and clients that are of the Muslim faith. I know it only takes the msguided acts of a few to attract a light that makes many look bad, perhaps wrongfully.

The problems I have, though, are not so much that there are extremists and crazies, every group has those. It's the actions of the others. Better yet, the inaction. The silence. The failure to universally denounce the acts of others. In many Muslim nations, the idea of a suicide bomber killing civilians is still a popular one, and accepted as a legitimate action by a large percentage of the populations. You think the 9/11 bombers are considered "bad guys" by the average person in Yemen and Saudi Arabia? Doubt it. I still remember the video feed of people cheering and dancing in the streets in the Palestinian territories when the news of the 9/11 attacks was first broadcast. Strange how those videos disappeared from the news broadcasts very quickly.

100% agreement with one side-bar....it would be hard to denounce something that is actually written in your "bible".  You know its morally reprehensible but to act against it would be blasphemy and make you a target.  It appears they aren't ready for that kind of courageous action...it will come but probably not in our lifetime.

[MADe]

I've felt for awhile that we should dump the UN. Great idea, poor execution.

Shakespere said,
 1st thing we should do, is kill all the lawyers. I would add bankers and stock brokers to this.

[Sikboy]

Shakespere said,
 1st thing we should do, is kill all the lawyers.

I'd be careful when you come for us. Some of us are pretty well armed

-Sik

[SEraider]

Here comes the neocons with their war drumbeat and a bad excuse to go to another war.

[Changeup]

Here comes the neocons with their war drumbeat and a bad excuse to go to another war.

Easy Raider..no one is callling for a hitching-of-the-ponies-all-out-America-wants-blow-up-another-country.  That being said, no one here is privy to any national security intelligence...period.  That is not arguable.  One of the ideals that made this country great was citizen-government.  If someone thinks they can govern better, they are more than welcome to run a race and make a difference.  I don't see a ton of "well-informed" people running for office in my area....i see the same old BS from the same ole Kay Bailey Hutchinsons and Rick Perrys while the rest of the population claims to be neo-con or liberal but does nothing about the booms in office.

Again...just because it's on TV or the internet doesn't make it true...Just sayin...dont be so quick to throw Neocon out there just because someone believes that both wars were right, long term.  That is how I feel from knowing officers and non-coms that are men of character that I personally served with earlier in my life that were there in 01, with some serving through this moment.   Beyond the shadow of any doubt, I trust their experience and opinions with regard to the "whys" and "reasons", including the necessity of both wars.  Who I do not trust are media outlets that get paid.....paid to print stories of sensationalism that will promote their writer's careers or website's advertising and further their own positions that are littered with factless claims mixed with half-truths.  But that's just me...I am looking forward to that dialogue off-line.

V/r

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[lyric1]

  How did this thread slip past the powers to be?

[USRanger]