Advice on BnZ

[Muzzy]

Okay, I'm still trying to get a handle on flying high-speed aircraft in the MA.  Here's what I'm having trouble with:

I understand that the basic strategy is to come in with alt, dive down on a target, take a quick shot, then extend away, reverse, and repeat.

1. My targets always turn away making a shot impossible.

2. I'm having trouble reversing quickly in the FW A8 that I'm flying.

Could somebody also explain the difference between bnz and slashing tactics?  I'm having trouble understanding it. 

[maddafinga]

I think you're confusing bnz tactics with a bounce.  A bounce, or slash if you'd rather is just a pass and extend.  For instance, in a big furball, you come through with alt and speed, slash through the middle taking shots at whatever you can without turning any amount to speak of.  When you get through, keep going and re-alt before coming back.  A bounce is the same thing, but only on one plane.

B n Z, or bounce and zoom (or boom and zoom if you like) is actually a more aggressive style of fighting you can use if you have a guy corralled and have alt on him.  You make a diving pass, then pull up and zoom away.  BUT!  You don't zoom far away, keep close to the bad guy, 1.5k to 2k at most.  As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn.  Make another pass, and do the same thing, zoom away and reverse to dive on him again.  The idea is to make him keep turning in the horizontal as much as possible while you are rolling in the vertical.  That way he's burning E much faster than you are.  Before too long, he won't have enough E to keep evading your passes and you'll hit him as you pass. 

[Muzzy]

Very helpful...thanks much....but can you clarify on the following:

"As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn."

Also, how do you reverse in the FW, which has no turn?

[Ghastly]

Let me ask you a rhetorical question...  how does an airplane normally turn?  

The answer is, you point your lift vector where you want the aircraft to go, and then apply up elevator.  (Excluding skids which aren't very effective or energy efficient.)

Imagine you are zooming, as in going straight up after taking your shot.  Can you roll the aircraft so that your lift vector is pointed where ever you want?  Of course you can... And how much (more) energy does it cost you to roll the aircraft some direction as compared to not?  Very little.  And how fast can you roll the aircraft compared to how fast a slower aircraft can turn a flat circle??  Much faster! So...

As you zoom, roll the aircraft to point your lift vector to wherever you want to go next, and then pull.  As you are already zooming, it's the most efficient way to turn a heavy, poor turning aircraft.  In fact, it's the most energy efficient way to rapidly change course in a heavily wingloaded aircraft, even if you are not in the middle of a BnZ fight.  

<S>

[fbWldcat]

I think it was either Ack-Ack or Fugitive which had a really good img. which explained it step by step.

A basic BnZ is where you gain alt on your opponent, swoop down, fire a burst if he doesn't turn. If he does, pull up, find him and swoop down again. With more experienced pilots they will often start a rolling scissors in which case it is best for you to extend and escape. A P-47 is not the scissoring type.

Just my take on it, then again I haven't really played for months...

[maddafinga]

Ghastly is exactly right.  If you're diving nose downward at a plane, and he's break turning to avoid your bounce.  To follow him through his turn, since you're nose down, you just roll in that direction.  Like he said, roll to keep your lift vector on his plane.  The point here is that you don't want to be turning much at all.  You want to force him to turn, while you just roll to track.  As you flatten out and get into range, as he breaks away hard, you don't follow the turn, you go back up.  He's burned much more E than you.

[The Fugitive]

Here's a film. In the first minute I bounce a B24, just dive in and hit them and blow out the other side. At about the 2 minute mark I make a pass on a P47. You can see the the lead pulled by rolling and pulling Gs to get the lead by using the "lift vector" mentioned here.

For the most part the rest of the film is a BnZ fight...and a lazy one at that. I wasn't very aggressive, tho you can see I don't get outside 2k on the 190. I keep my speed up as well as the alt advantage as the 190 slowly looses both. Once I close hard on him it was just a matter of time until even my poor aim got him.

Alas, sigh... I didn't have the time as we see the Knight horde go after me and finish me off. That horde is the type of flying that is killing game play. What was the forth and filth guy thinking when they joined in? Ahhh well.

I hope the film helps you to see what everyone is talking about.

[Agent360]

Okay, I'm still trying to get a handle on flying high-speed aircraft in the MA.  Here's what I'm having trouble with:

I understand that the basic strategy is to come in with alt, dive down on a target, take a quick shot, then extend away, reverse, and repeat.

This part you have correct

1. My targets always turn away making a shot impossible.

The "trick" to learn is reading the enemy icons. Assuming there are multiple enemy below you and you are closing into the "furball" area, start looking at the icons. Pay attention to the numbers indicating your distance. Attempt to close to an enemy where the distance is decreasing. Use zoom for short periods to determine the angle of the plane.

Many will turn early, some will wait and break at the last second, others will pull up or spit S.

In the beggining..where you are now it will be difficult to construct a shooting angle that allows you to close into the turn where you get close enough to make a passing angle shot. Sometimes it will be very close, other times you will only get a d600 or so shot before the shot window is closed.

The best way is to get your nose down EARLY then pull up into the crossing shot. NOT late where you have to roll inverted or take a blind shot under the nose.

When there are slower friendly around break turning lower than you the enemy will always go for them. This is the perfect set up. If you pay close attention to the range of the enemy icons you can often close into the enemy without being detected.

Often you will make a pass on as many as 5 or more and all of them will be turning into you...just keep trucking...extend and come around for another pass. You may have to make 3, 4 , 5 or more before you get a good shot....PATIENCE is the key.

2. I'm having trouble reversing quickly in the FW A8 that I'm flying.

You should not try to "reverse" on them....ONLY create a closing crossing shot. The best way is to keep your plane fast...300 to 350...after the pass nose up to 2k of climb and extend. If you go verticle on a missed shot you WILL get caught by another enemy.

Sometimes you can get more than one shot depending on the enemy speed and where they are heading. DO NOT turn back into the furball to chase. Always keep your diving attack at an off angle form the enemy pack. If you do go through the middle make sure you plan the exit coming out AWAY from the base/enemy pack.

Could somebody also explain the difference between bnz and slashing tactics?  I'm having trouble understanding it. 

I am speaking here in terms of OFFENSIVE gun passes. BnZ is more of a 1 on 2 type of combat. Slashing is just 400 mph strait throug taking targets of oppurtunity and extending off.

The correct way is to LEARN TO READ THE FURBALL....looking for icons that match a profile that allow you to close before they can make an evasive move...many will get check 6 and see you coming...but even these can be targets if you have the right angle and closing speed.

And remember.....nose low way early...easy pull up early and take a zero G shot...this is the key...ZERO G shot.

[Yenny]

just PM me inside the game Muzzy, under Joachim. I'll help you w/ this BnZ stuff.

[Muzzy]

Guys thanks so much...this is really helping my perception of how to accomplish this.  I'm going to try and digest it all but I'll probably be back with more questions tomorrow.

[papjohns]

Guys thanks so much...this is really helping my perception of how to accomplish this.  I'm going to try and digest it all but I'll probably be back with more questions tomorrow.

Only way to learn is ask, you are doing the right thing. Keep asking questions...always always try to learn something new.


It would also behove (sp?) you to take up Joachim on his offer. Having a Mentor goes a long way. I had the fortune to have had someone take interest in my flying; and that individual's mentorship has increased my skill 5-fold and shortened the learning curve exponentially......

Papa

[pervert]

Using roll to get guns, switch trail on.

http://www.4shared.com/file/9ey4wVjW/19047.html

[Dawger]

Very helpful...thanks much....but can you clarify on the following:

"As you dive, use your roll to track his turn, you can roll much faster than he can turn."

Also, how do you reverse in the FW, which has no turn?

This is in reference to a vertical attack. If the bandit breaks in a mostly horizontal fashion while you are attacking from directly above you can easily match his break turn with roll rate.

A very common mistake is to dive down to the enemy when he is spotted. We are not trying to achieve a equal energy state merge. If you spot a low bandit you wish to attack, keep your altitude until you arrive over the bandit. At that point you initiate your attack in the form of a barrel roll attack or split S attack depending upon bandit direction relative to you.

Conversely, do not drive under high bandits. The best defense against a high bandit is to make him chase you. Don't let him achieve position over you. He will most likely become impatient and dive after you. Once he equalizes E-state you can then reverse and teach him an important lesson.

Here are a couple examples of roll rate defeating turn although they are not textbook examples.

Roll versus turn 1

Roll rate versus turn 2

Here is most of a recent bnz fight. The thing to watch for is I have position myself over a fight that is mostly horizontal . I stay vertical through most of it and it makes for easy PICKings. If you get accused of "picking" then you are probably doing a good job of bnz in a furball.

Bnz furball

I'll try to find or create a "textbook" example of defeating a hard breaking bandit using roll rate so that it is more clear.

[Dawger]

This is a slightly better demonstration of using roll rate to defeat a hard break turn

Roll rate example 3

[Muzzy]

Dawger, so it seems from the film that you get right above the target, or as near as you can, and dive straight down on them, then as they turn, you roll to point your lift vector in their direction?

It seems also that in most cases you are staying relatively close to the furball (not extending away) by using the 38's climbing ability? Would you have to extend further in a plane that doesn't climb as well, like the 51?