Fighter tactics questions from a newb

[Roadblck]

I've seen what great replies Muzzy's been getting in his threads, so I decided to start one to get some advice/help from the community.

I'm pretty new to AH.  I flew a bit back in 2002, but was never a great fighter pilot.  Most of what I used to know and/or be able to do seems to be gone, so I'm trying to start over and build my ACM skills.

Last night I was cruising around at about 18K in a 190D, and I spot a high P47 (turned out to be an P47M).  He shows 3.0K as he passes above me, so I assume this means 3000 yards (or meters?), so he must be up in the mid 20s.  He sort of shadows me around a bit, but doesn't come down for a while.  I make a couple of boom and zoom passes on folks lower, and notice that the 47 is finally making a run at me.  He's diving on my 6, about 1.0k out.

What do I do?  I have been mostly flying spitfires lately, and I felt like I could handle the situation pretty well there, since I can turn hard enough to try to defeat his guns solution, but in the 190 (which I am unfamiliar with), I wasn't sure that I could  turn tight enough to really give him much trouble, and if I can, will I bleed too much energy such that it puts me in bad shape for his subsequent passes.

As it happened, I avoided his first pass (broke into him, and slightly low, then tried to extend away from him, and keep my speed up) , but as he came around, the second time and I tried a similar maneuver, he pinged me up pretty well (pilot wounded, and some control surface damage). 

I'm sure I could have handled it better.  Sadly, I was not filming, but given my inexperience in the game, and in the 190, I'm not sure the film would show much more than some poor flying on my part.

So my general question is:  In this situation (15-18K altitude, my 190D vs a P47M with a pretty substantial energy advantage), what should my "plan" be?  Can I fly in such a way that I can try to equalize the situation?

Thanks!

[WMLute]

One bit of advice I can give you is...

"It isn't just what you do, it is when you do it."

WHEN to do a move is just as import. as what move you are doing.

If you do the right move, but one second too late or too early, you are gonna get shot.

[Muzzy]

If I may...

The first thing I would do (after getting shot down) is go to DokGonzo's aircraft performance charts and compare the two birds. There are some interesting facts there that can help you formulate a plan. The -M model jug is not listed, so I used the N instead. The Dora's biggest advantages over the Jug are speed, both top-end (slight) and acceleration (reasonable from 300 to 350), and climb rate (substantial at the altitude in question). Your weakness is turning radius.  You also have a great roll rate.

The FW's always work better when fast, so I would make a habit of making sure you're leveled out and fast before entering a combat situation. The -M is going to have a speed advantage in a dive, but you've got good high-speed handling qualities, so you need to get up to speed fast.

The second thing is keep an eye on him and try not to give him what he wants, which is a diving shot at your six.  Note his direction and use small movements to keep yourself out of alignment with his nose.  When he does dive, I would say your best bet is to use your roll rate to make life difficult for him, maybe a spiral (upwards or downwards? I'm not sure which...<insert expert opinion here>)?

I'd guess your overall goal is to equalize energy states.  You're going to have to sucker him lower.  That means avoiding his dives repeatedly and using your climb rate to retain or regain altitude until you're above him, and keeping your speed up as much as possible. He won't be able to climb as quickly as you, so if you've got speed you *might* be able to hang on his tail as he goes up and get a shot off, but don't let him rope you. I'd probably try to use gradual climbs to increase alt slowly, diving slightly as necessary if you need speed. You don't want to use too many hard turns in order to retain energy, but do what you have to do to  stay alive, remembering that your goal is to survive long enough for him to run out of alt. Climb whenever you get the chance.


I'm kind of looking at this as a test for my own problem solving capabilities...hopefully somebody else can have a look and see if I'm on the right track!

-Muzzy

[ImADot]

He shows 3.0K as he passes above me, so I assume this means 3000 yards (or meters?), so he must be up in the mid 20s. 

Distances (D200, D800, D1.5k, etc.) are showing yards.  Altitude (your altimeter and field alt) is shown in feet.

So, a con directly above you at D3.0k is 9,000' above you.

[Muzzy]

Distances (D200, D800, D1.5k, etc.) are showing yards.  Altitude (your altimeter and field alt) is shown in feet.

So, a con directly above you at D3.0k is 9,000' above you.

  Nobody told me there would be math on this test!

[RTHolmes]

Barrel Roll Defence

[Muzzy]

Dang! I was gonna say barrel roll defense!  I was!

[ImADot]

Muzzy 

That's why people sometimes get accused of cheating when they drop a bomb from D400 and blow up someone's GV.  Bombs need to travel 1,000' to arm.  D400 is 400x3=1200' and that's travel distance, not altitude.  you could be 200' off the deck and if you fly fast enough the bomb will travel the thousand feet before hitting the ground.

[RTHolmes]

BRD, corsair diving from very high 6 (sounds like what you encountered):
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/47m_brd.ahf

BRD, LA coming in fast and level dead 6:
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/spit8_barrel_roll_defense_vs_la7.ahf

same BRD, first film the con blows through and tries to egress, second film the cons dumps his E and tries to follow.

[shiv]

Barrel roll defense thread, look for Mntman's description:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,276908.0.html

Short film:  http://www.mediafire.com/?dxiupagyczcjcyj

Basically, if you break turn at the right time he won't be able to pull lead for a shot.  He shoots, the bullets go past your tail and then you can roll back at him.   Eventually he burns all his E pullling for shots and his advantage is taken away.

[Roadblck]

Thanks for all of the replies!  

As someone pointed out, timing is critical in any of these maneuvers.  I  understand the concept of this type of defensive maneuver, but I'm not sure how to learn the correct time to begin it.  Is there something you guys watch for (distance, his angle-off-tail on me, etc) to give you a clue when to start?   I understand that it may be one of those things that just comes with experience.

Edit: Posted this before I went to read mathman's post... his has a lot of the info I was looking for.  Whoops!

[RTHolmes]

well for breaks as late as possible really, when the icon range changes from d800 to d600 is usually about when you want to break (thats 700yds) assuming the guy has .50s and can hit you from d600. you can leave it later for the tater

[SIK1]

Roadblck like most other things in AH the only real way to get good at something is to practice it. Every situation is unique so it is difficult to say do x when plane y is at z. One thing that experience will give you is a better understanding of the relative E state of you and your opponent, and what you need to do to put yourself in a position to shoot at him without him being able to shoot you.

The other thing is get to know your plane in all aspects of it's flight envelope. I recommend that at first you stick with one ride until you are comfortable with it's flight model. That way you're not trying to continually learn the plane, the timing, the gunnery, etc needed to succeed.

[RTHolmes]

I recommend that at first you stick with one ride until you are comfortable with it's flight model. That way you're not trying to continually learn the plane, the timing, the gunnery, etc needed to succeed.

^ good advice

[Roadblck]

Roadblck like most other things in AH the only real way to get good at something is to practice it. Every situation is unique so it is difficult to say do x when plane y is at z. One thing that experience will give you is a better understanding of the relative E state of you and your opponent, and what you need to do to put yourself in a position to shoot at him without him being able to shoot you.

I know exactly what you mean, and this is partly what's made me want to try a different plane, and a different style of flying.  As perhaps the worst fighter pilot in the game at the moment, my lifespan in the spit seems to be extremely short.  I'm not good enough to dive into any sort of furball and come out of it with even a single kill before I get picked off by someone.  I always end up defensive, and in defending, ultimately end up low and slow and shortly thereafter, dead.  Perhaps this is just my lack of experience in not knowing how else to defend in a spitfire and not sacrifice all of my energy in the process.

In the 190, I was able to stay higher and faster than most of the opposition, and while I didn't score a ton of kills, I was at least able to fight more on "my terms" (picking who and when to engage), and I had more fun.  I'd love to someday become so good that I can take a spit V into a pack of enemies, chew them up and spit them out the way Leviathn used to, but I'm probably years away from that.