Author Topic: 3.5 GHZ  (Read 1004 times)

Offline jihad

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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2001, 05:18:00 AM »
Bloom, check your private messages, I have a business proposition for you.    ;)

Offline Rendar

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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
I will be studying Engineering at college...I like EE, Computer, and Mechanical. :)

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »
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Hey DejaVu, have you looked into some of the research on crystaline nanotubules yet? The plan is to build single electron switches by basically allowing tunneling between adjacent cells. To be frank I never have fully got a handle on electron tunneling concepts so it seems kind of like a shot in the dark attempt in my mind, but maybe you see something there...

Thought about bs'ing to make it sound like I knew what you were talking about, but then thought better of it.

I do know we are doing work with fiber-optics in microprossessors, but it is crude and very young in its development.  There is also talk of crystaline mass storage devices, and it has been proven to work on a transistor (or whatever the call the cell) level... but a real application is questioned.

One thing that is popular right (already used in the industry in non-mpc chips) is 3d manufacturing.  Actually placing transistors on top of transistors.  I've seen some work on it and its quite fascinating.  It really doesn't help in regards to speed, but it does offer the opportunity to do things such as place a video chipset inside of your cpu packaging.

 
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I'm guessing your research at this time primarily involves SOI techniques and high-K dielectrics. What are you guys looking into at this point? 10 Ghz seems to be a pretty lofty goal with current technologies. 5 Ghz should be easy enough with the P4 design, but that means the ALUs are going to be running at 10 Ghz, which ought to be interesting.

I work with Spin-on-Dielectrics.  Its actually at the other end of the spectrum from what you are thinking.  Our group is called the "Low-K" group for a good reason ;)  We work more on the top portion of the processor (well above the transistors).

There is a clear path to 10GHz.  Many chemical manufacturers are working toward that quite nicely.  I don't forsee a problem there.  Unfortunately, we are running into various issues such as a certain type of molecule/atom being too thick... problems for wich there seems to be no solution.

I do believe (My opinion here) that we will eventually run into a hard barrier for speed.  At that time, we will have to either find a completely different medium for manufacturing processors, or change the role processors play in computing.  I believe Intel is working to cover both angles... but only time will tell on that.

 
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I don't think Moore's law is going to hold much longer.

You aren't the first to say this.  Many have been saying since Gordon first issued the statement.

 
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My opinion is that the power dissipation combined with smaller and smaller transistor sizes is going to be a very large problem, especially considering the current trend in increasing transistor count dramatically for additional cache memory etc.

Its my job to take your oppinion on this subject and shove it up your posterier.  So far, our group has been doing that very successfully.  I worked for lithography and was there when we proved quite conclusively that you could pattern a line/trench smaller than the wavelength of light being used to expose it. :D

Smaller transistors is not a problem in regards to heat.  Its a benifit.  You decrease the length of your gate, reducing the resistance in the line.  The obvious paths here are finding less resistant chemistries to make your gates out of and minimizing the amount of current used to run the devices.  This is an area where Intel kicks AMD's ass.  Unfortunately, cooler does not translate to faster.  But, when it comes to the laptop market, we will keep a firm handle on things.

The P-4 is in its infancy.  I guarantee that reducing power consumption is one of the primary objectives in its future designs.

 
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One thing is for sure, heatsink design is going to have to improve.

I have a tendancy to think that power consumption is the area that has to improve.  AMD is pushing the limits as it is right now.  Intel did it too (quite to their demise) with the 1 GHz processor.  Intel has since backed off a tad with the P-3, while AMD is still riding the edge.

I can't help but laugh when I read threads in regards to heat-sinks in this forum.  The things people are starting to accept as common-place are increadible.  Having to sand the back of your processor is not acceptable (IMHO).  Having your PC shut down because you used 1 micron too much heat-transfer goo.  Requiring 18 fans to keep a processor cool is not acceptable.  Both companies need to work on that first and foremost.

AKDejaVu

Offline Westy MOL

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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2001, 01:19:00 PM »
Bloom? Ya made my head explode  :(

Anyone besides me feeling obsolete?  :)

-- Westy

Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2001, 01:36:00 PM »
I recommend some of you guys read:
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0670882178/102-5545064-4020148

Agree or disagree, there is some interesting theories in there.  It's not highly technical, just more of a prediction thing.  Very interesting though.

Offline agosling

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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
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when i went to college in 1997 fastest computer available was 266 mhz, now 2 ghz   :)

Damn, Zigrat, you make me feel old! Best we had when I was in school (also EE) was a 1MHz 6809! anyone care to guess the date?

Hint: We had a presentation my Senior year by a guy from Intel on the new 186 architecture, and he wowed us with wet dreams of the 286. He even mentioned that somehwere off in the distant future there might even be a 386!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
I'll see if I can round that up at a library Lephturn.

I don't really pay much head to reviews though... especially when they call someone a visionary because of what he said yesterday in regards to tomorrow.  "He is a visionary" had better have something to back it up other than a good read.

AKDejaVu

Offline Phantom121

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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »
Feeling old? I started on teletypes and paper tape, the "winchester" hard drives were just coming into comercial use, the the floppy (8in) had not even been invented, and there was speculation that the new solid state memory chips might become viable as a lower cost alternative to iron core memory, and intel had just started up and was talking about a new semicondutor processor all on one chip ( the 4004).

Offline Russian

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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2001, 03:32:00 PM »
All of you wrong, check this out. 75Ghz....Wow http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/2001-09-04-motorola-chip.htm

In 3 years we should have 70+Ghz.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2001, 11:12:00 PM »
Unfortunately that Motorola article is too general to gain any real information from it.  It's certainly interesting, but GaAs has been in use for a long time.  Actually the coolest application I can see for this technology that they didn't mention is the possibility of a light emitting panel.  It would be neccessary to get materials besides just GaAs to "stick" to silicon to get all of the available colors though.  :)  Blue and white LEDs use InGaN (indium galium nitride).  (In case you guys were curious the white leds are just a blue led with a coating of "glow in the dark" phosphorous.  :D )

"75 Ghz" looks like some number the press pulled off a press release to me.   ;)  It's going to take a LOT of work to get that far.

Some VERY interesting research I saw at OSU last spring involved molecular switches made of organic compounds.  Basically they allowed a current to flow when exposed to certain wavelengths of light.  The potential of these things are HUGE if they work as planned.

Jihad, I just checked my messages.  That's very interesting, but WAY beyond me at this point.  :( (My area is digital circuits.)  I'll have to do some serious thinking (and pulling out the old textbooks) on this one.  In the meantime let me try to dig up some good info for you.  :)

Offline moose

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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
this thread makes my head want to explode.
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2001, 12:10:00 AM »
Here's that article I was talking about DejaVu: http://www.eetimes.com/story/technology/OEG20010822S0059

I agree with you that Intel is a long way ahead of AMD in process technology and power consumption.  My dream right now is an Athlon CPU produced on Intel's .13 micron process.   ;)  AMD is working on a SOI .13 micron production line though for their Barton core CPUs slated for late 2002.

---------------------------------------------
(And now I'm going to ramble totally off-topic, but I'm bored and you don't have to read it.   :p )

I had a couple (I think) good ideas for products a few months ago that unfortunately I didn't do anything with.  Just a week ago I saw two of them for sale.   :(  I might as well tell you what they were, since I don't have the resources to do anything with them.  The first was (don't laugh) a purse light using a 3mm white led sewn into the rim of a purse.  I built a very crude prototype but didn't do anything with it.  A couple days ago my mom told me she saw almost exactly what I built at JCPenny.  The other idea was to build a replacement mag lite bulb with a white led.  I built one for myself.  (Bright and minimal power consumption, not to mention much higher bulb life.)  A few days ago I saw a white led mag lite type flashlight on a Snap-On truck.

Recently I've designed and built some pretty simple circuits for people as side projects this summer. A few of them would certainly sell if I were to produce them.  The oddest circuit I designed for someone is a solid-state replacement for the sequential turn signal lights on an old 66 Tbird.   :D  (The original units were an electric motor that spun around in a HUGE box that took up 1/4 of the trunk.)  The circuit I designed involved all of 5 $.50 chips for each side and just worked off the already existant turn signal flasher signal.  I'm currently building a little circuit for a piece of artwork involving light and sound effects.   ;)  You guys wouldn't believe how many people want to make little lights flash on and off real fast.   :D (<- hint 555 timer, 4017 decade counter, and lm7805 5V regulator will get you far. )  The coolest project I did this summer was a security system for a Harley that was small enough to fit behind the battery (including siren) under the seat.

All of these circuits I've done occur totally by chance really.  For the past 2 summers I've worked at a local electronics parts store part time. (Norvac)  We get people in nearly everyday who want what doesn't exist as a complete product, but would be relatively simple to build.  Several of them have market potential.  
That motorcycle security system has extreme potential IMO.  Basically the way I built it what it does is to disable the ignition system if the bike is tilted too far off it's kickstand for a settable time period.  In addition it sounds a siren for several seconds.  I also added cool little extras like a redundant 9V power supply backup.  It does a lot of stuff, but all it is is one quad 555 timer (lm558) and a couple logic level mosfets to handle the siren and a relay that disconnects the hot wire to the coil.  All of this is in a unit 2" wide by 5" long by 1" tall including the attached 105 dB siren.  Total cost was about $10 US.  I figure people would pay at least $75 for it.   :)


(Edit:  That crazy instant graemlins feature went nuts. )

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: bloom25 ]

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2001, 01:38:00 AM »
Ah.. I hadn't heard of that particular technology Bloom... The problem isn't really creating smaller transistors, but rather integrating them into anything usefull.

As for AMD and SOI on a .13 micron process... I'd venture to say you'll see them do .13 micron long before you see it on SOI.

Its funny this came up this week.  We just did our Components Research "poster session" this week.  It covers most of the projects we are currently working on.  A few have been mentioned by others in this thread.  I kinda wish I could say more about them... but such is life.

Oh.. and on a side note... my first patent submission just cleared Intel legal and is on its way to the patent office.  We aren't really sure just what we've patented, but it sounds really cool in legaleze. :D

AKDejaVu

Offline jihad

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2001, 05:53:00 AM »
Jihad, I just checked my messages.  That's very interesting, but WAY beyond me at this point.

Don't sell yourself short, this is actually such a simple concept and natural dynamic that when people see it they will slap their forehead and say "why didn't we think of that?"

If an uneducated dumb bellybutton like me can see the concept then I'm sure you could improve on it.  :D

I found some of the info I asked you about last night and have drawn up some info and diagrams outlining the design, when I get the patent process underway I'll share some of it with you.  ;)

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »
Just heard from a little birdie that 3.6 GHz is doable by Q3 of '02.

AKDejaVu