Japanese Profiles.

[Devil 505]

Here is my issue with the Clover scheme as far as our game goes:

Fact#1: the aircraft did not appear as depicted in illustrations.
Fact#2: the fictional scheme in the illustrations is striking.

I think that as far as Greebo, Krusty and I am are concerned, the schemes a no-go because of Fact #1.

But will that stop another skinner in the future from doing it, and will HTC catch it during submission and reject it?

If the Clover makes it into the game it will likely be the most used skin for the Tony regardless of quality of the skin work itself.

to me, in general, a bad skin of an accurate scheme is equally bad as an inaccurate scheme done well. So I see a potential double-whammy should somebody attempt to skin it and slip it past HTC.

[bustr]

If you guys have to submit a photo along with your color profiles as sources to Skuzzy, wouldn't he reject any out of hand that he could not verify from to what you skinned?

[Devil 505]

Bustr, There are photos of the nose of the clover scheme, but nothing that clearly shows what the marking ahead of the meatball. very rarely is there a single photo of a plane that shows all the distinguishing features of a particular plane. The skin submission only allows for 2 reference photos - which are not mandatory for submission. Also, submitted reference can be an artist's profiles. So there is no hard and fast rule regarding reference and the current system would allow for the Clover scheme to slip though. Even I have submitted skins with only artist profiles for reference,

[lyric1]

Also, Seems to me that all Ki-61's had unpainted undersides. Is this correct?

Interesting to note that the lower photo is too degraded to pull much detail from it, but this one has an interesting color-related detail. It could be nothing, but I'm seeing a slight difference in the shades on the canopy and the "chipping" paint around the canopy and its slide-track area, as compared to the areas between color spotches. I surmise/guess it might not be splotches painted over bare metal, but over a light grey type of paint. Just a bit of food for thought.

Genuine Kawasaki painted KI-61-1 parts not the the -II looks like they did paint the under sides.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.yahoo.co.jp%2Fd0440me%2F33659884.html&edit-text=&act=url

[Greebo]

Thanks for posting the link Lyric1, its very interesting. To me those parts look to be corroded bare metal with dark green paint on the outside and green/brown shade on the inside surfaces. You can see the rivets showing on the unpainted external surfaces. The text translation is discussing whether the dark green paint was factory or field-applied.

This link is very useful I've just started revising my default Ki-61 skin. Now I can view it in-game I can see some things I want to change on it. One thing is the shade of green I used for the camouflage was too light and the new colour I have found is a lot closer to the one on those arts. Also I am changing the cockpit, gear bay colour to match the shade Waffle used on the cockpit art and this is also closer to the interior colour used on these parts.

I think its possible some Ki-61s may have had a base light grey colour applied in the field, either just on top or all over, prior to the dark green camo being applied but that bare metal was the factory finish.

[Devil 505]

Thanks for posting the link Lyric1, its very interesting. To me those parts look to be corroded bare metal with dark green paint on the outside and green/brown shade on the inside surfaces. You can see the rivets showing on the unpainted external surfaces. The text translation is discussing whether the dark green paint was factory or field-applied.

This link is very useful I've just started revising my default Ki-61 skin. Now I can view it in-game I can see some things I want to change on it. One thing is the shade of green I used for the camouflage was too light and the new colour I have found is a lot closer to the one on those arts. Also I am changing the cockpit, gear bay colour to match the shade Waffle used on the cockpit art and this is also closer to the interior colour used on these parts.

I think its possible some Ki-61s may have had a base light grey colour applied in the field, either just on top or all over, prior to the dark green camo being applied but that bare metal was the factory finish.

Corrosion on aluminium does not look like that. If it were corroded aluminium, is would have rough splotches of a pale gray color lighter than the uncorroded aluminium.

[Greebo]

Corrosion on aluminium does not look like that. If it were corroded aluminium, is would have rough splotches of a pale gray color lighter than the uncorroded aluminium.

If we assume the underneath of the cowl is light grey paint rather than bare metal the dark scratches and blotches on this area could be more dark green paint showing through an over-painted light grey coat. It is unusual to paint a light colour over the top of a dark one though and the scratches/blotches look too dark to be primer. Also the dark green areas of the cowl are heavily scratched showing the bare metal but there doesn't seem to be any similarly scratched bare metal areas on the light grey paint. It also seems odd the rivets are all uniformly darker on the light grey area. Perhaps one of our Japanese players could find out more regarding these Ki-61 parts?

I have never been able to find any conclusive original source on how Ki-61s were painted during the war.  Ki-43s were bare metal from the factory until the Ki-43-III which was olive/grey and I assumed the same applied to other single-engine IJAAF fighters; i.e Ki-61-I bare metal and Ki-61-II and Ki-100 olive/grey. Most other secondary sources like modelling forums seem to hold this opinion as well but I have yet to see anyone quote an original source like an IJAAF paint order or a USAAF technical report.

There is a Kagero book on the Ki-61 that's out of print but I can get hold of for a price. I might order it to see what it has to say on the matter.

[lyric1]

There is a Kagero book on the Ki-61 that's out of print but I can get hold of for a price. I might order it to see what it has to say on the matter.

I have it.
Will read up on it again.

[lyric1]

If we assume the underneath of the cowl is light grey paint rather than bare metal the dark scratches and blotches on this area could be more dark green paint showing through an over-painted light grey coat. It is unusual to paint a light colour over the top of a dark one though and the scratches/blotches look too dark to be primer. Also the dark green areas of the cowl are heavily scratched showing the bare metal but there doesn't seem to be any similarly scratched bare metal areas on the light grey paint. It also seems odd the rivets are all uniformly darker on the light grey area. Perhaps one of our Japanese players could find out more regarding these Ki-61 parts?

My take on the engine cowl is this.
We have two colours on the external areas of the engine cowl in my opinion.

Looking at the external areas of the cowl I don't see any deep scratches that have penetrated to the bare metal at all. On the internal portions of the cowl we now have a third colour painted. When you look at the inside portions of the cowl there is a number of areas where the paint is missing. None of those bare metal areas on the back of the cowl look anything like the front portion of the cowling. They seem to match the bare metal areas of the spinner though. The spinner is of course dark green & you can see the brown looking primer in places.






I agree with you Greebo it would be strange to paint a light colour over a dark one.
I think that is what we have though.
When I zoom the rivets up large I see a light grey colour on all of them that matches the light grey areas surrounding them. Where the scratches have penetrated the light grey we have the same dark green again. The scratches on the sides on the green painted areas don't look to be deep enough to get to bare metal & look also to be light grey under the green. Also the green areas look to have some brush strokes where the demarcation line is on the light grey that are better seen on the second image down.






My best guess is we have one base coat of a green paint on all of the exterior of the cowl. Then a 2nd coat of light grey on all of the exterior of the cowling. Then a portion of hand painted third coat along the demarcation line on the sides of the cowling because they did not use tape.



Edit:

Here is a good shot of bare metal on the front portion of the cowl.
A line of rivets missing paint altogether except the one in the middle.
The middle one shows the light gray around its edges and its top has the green.

[Greebo]

I have the book "Fighters of the Imperial Japanese Army" which lists unit markings (tail codes etc) for the individual Sentais and Chutais of the IJAAF and how they changed throughout the war. It generally avoids talking about how specific types of aircraft were painted in the factory but there is one reference to the 68th Sentai's Ki-61s in which it states:-

"The majority of the Hien were camouflaged in grey, or were a metallic colour with green mottling. Mottling was the camouflage system painted by the ground staff over grey or directly onto the metal itself, with which the mother country machines were treated."

So if this is correct then the Ki-61s from the mother country could have either a light grey base or a bare metal one. In which case I guess we will just have to interpret the photos we have and make a judgement call.

If the museum parts were painted green with an over-paint of light grey on the lower surfaces the question is were a large number of dark green Ki-61s painted that way in the factory. It looks a bit too crudely done to be a factory finish to me.  If this is a field-applied scheme then other dark green Ki-61s could be green over either light grey or bare metal undersides.

[lyric1]

I have it.
Will read up on it again.

This is all of it in the book.
Text is not a match to the photo of the cowl or the spinner.

[lyric1]

"The majority of the Hien were camouflaged in grey, or were a metallic colour with green mottling. Mottling was the camouflage system painted by the ground staff over grey or directly onto the metal itself, with which the mother country machines were treated."

We can certainly prove the metallic version with the colour photos within this thread.







Now the best colour image I have of a solid colour is this one below.

In the image the remaining metal frame of the rudder is clearly bare metal.

So what is the underside of the fuselage?
Its clearly not the same as the bare metal frame of the rudder.





Looks like a light grey to me?



You have seen this image before Greebo but for the rest of you here is a wrecked colour image of a KI-43.

It looks to have a light grey base as well then over sprayed with the green as described in the post by Greebo.

[lyric1]

Found a drawing of this pilot & plane on a Japanese sight.
I think the 3rd digit is a zero?

Model of the same aircraft showing the full number.

[Greebo]

Here's a link to some photos and description of the remains of a 78th Sentai Ki-61-I Otsu recovered from New Guinea. Apparently this was a late 1943 production aircraft in a bare metal finish.

[Greebo]

Ki-61 production line. Looks like bare metal with the Hinomaru markings applied.