The WWI arena today

[Rich46yo]

I was just in there. I'd bet its the best arena to really hone dogfighting skills sans none. You really have to fly those things with instinct. I would look at the limited set as an opportunity to combat in the same plane, therefor making all things equal.

And the "feel" of the planes?? Very good modeling I'd say. Im going to try and spend some time in there myself. Most of all if "gentlemanly rules" apply. As in no freaking HO'ing!

I really like the throttle response and the trim response, most of all the elevators. This is a better arena then its stats say. Anyhoo Im beat tonight.

[Ghosth]

Here is my take on it, there simply is not enough to do to keep people interested as it is now.

That is not to say that it needs to be a a field capture, win the war setup.
But there needs to be an alternative to the furball.

With the current low numbers, unless your one of the top 4 sticks in the arena at any given point eventually you will get frustrated. Would you really fly in LWOrange if there were only 10 pilots in there, and 8 of them shot you down every time you saw one? Ohhh for a tour you might, but after 3 tours? Every time you did manage to get a kill one of the pro's swoops in and takes you down. How long would you keep coming back?

Rather than leave the arena, wouldn't it be better if there was "something" else to do?
Be it zep hunting, balloon busting, convoy strafing, etc.

That doesn't mean it has to be tied field capture, or to winning the war, resetting the map, etc.
It just means there needs to be alternatives. Something to do other than furball. So when the next 3 guys look at the arena select screen, instead of seeing 8 guys, maybe they see 14 or 20. And the next bunch see 25 or 30. People will draw people, if you can keep them interested, keep them busy flying and having at least some fun.

Also when there are lots of people in there, the odds are much better that you can get a kill or 2 and get out to land them. You still have the same 4 top sticks, but there are also a lot of average pilots and probably some new guys. So the percentage chance of winning a fight is much higher.  When its under 10, those odds go down dramatically for the average pilot.

Its a bit like hitting your head against a brick wall.
You try it, and it hurts, but you really want to do this and get through, so you try it again.
And you keep trying it until the pain level eventually gets high enough to override your desire.

Its the same with the WWI arena. Eventually either you master it, and become one of the 5 or 6 top sticks, or the pain and frustration drives you away. Personally I loved the first tour, 2nd tour started hurting, and by the end of the 3rd tour I'd look at the arena screen and alt F4. I would go do anything that was less frustrating and painful.

More things to do, that involve flying, that take a certain amount of skill, and daring, with a certain amount of risk, and that leaves you feeling ready to maybe go take another crack at that furball.

[Lusche]

^^^^
This.

Or from another point of view: the (LW) MA gives players a way to "win" (and thus have fun) in many different way, on many different levels, even when not being one of the top-notch fighter guys.

[SCTusk]

The dr1 is not superior

We already covered this BGB; the general consensus I believe, is that it is currently superior  - well supported by such facts as 1. more difficult to break 2. tighter turns 3. easier to fly competitively etc. The list goes on, and the stats are supportive (if not conclusive).

Here's an aspect perhaps not yet covered: I'm guessing that people are flying the WW1 birds more recklessly (i.e. less realistically) than the WW2 kit. I've tinkered about in the WW2 arenas from time to time and noticed how generally realistic the flying is, according at least to my expectations (from the literature, movies etc). But the WW1 arena seems to foster all or nothing low level stall turning wing bending madness, which is fine I guess (and fun) but with the nature of the Dr1 as currently modelled only puts more nails in the coffin of the level playing field. The Dr1 is mainly forgiving of this type of mistreatment, whereas the other three a/c will punish you quickly for getting too close to the edge.

I recently saw a very cool documentary from the UK about a couple of RAF Red Arrows pilots who had a go flying WW1 replica a/c (titled Fighting the Red Baron). These guys are the full business, long and distinguished careers in aviation, and they were nervous each time they flew in the replicas. Even the humble and rather mild Avro 504k. It was very clear they were not comfortable, and that any aerial manoeuvring was going to be done with great care and trepidation. It only serves to increase my humour whenever someone in a Dr1 suffering delusions of heroic aerial prowess out flat-turns me at tree level and flies away from my Camel's corpse with some taunt or worse some patronising advice. Not suggesting I'm not just as guilty, no way I'd attempt some of the stuff in the RW that I pull in the arena, but the Camel does force a certain respect from it's pilots, whereas the Dr1 says 'I'm a game, play me'.

Whatever the secret ingredient is in the WW2 arenas which encourages more realistic behaviour, we could use some in WW1. If it boils down to simple goal orientation, then I'm all for it. 

[pervert]

Gonna watch that documentary now its at 

http://veehd.com/video/4043191_Fighting-the-Red-Baron-2010

[BaldEagl]

Here is my take on it, there simply is not enough to do to keep people interested as it is now.

That is not to say that it needs to be a a field capture, win the war setup.
But there needs to be an alternative to the furball.

With the current low numbers, unless your one of the top 4 sticks in the arena at any given point eventually you will get frustrated. Would you really fly in LWOrange if there were only 10 pilots in there, and 8 of them shot you down every time you saw one? Ohhh for a tour you might, but after 3 tours? Every time you did manage to get a kill one of the pro's swoops in and takes you down. How long would you keep coming back?

Rather than leave the arena, wouldn't it be better if there was "something" else to do?
Be it zep hunting, balloon busting, convoy strafing, etc.

That doesn't mean it has to be tied field capture, or to winning the war, resetting the map, etc.
It just means there needs to be alternatives. Something to do other than furball. So when the next 3 guys look at the arena select screen, instead of seeing 8 guys, maybe they see 14 or 20. And the next bunch see 25 or 30. People will draw people, if you can keep them interested, keep them busy flying and having at least some fun.

Also when there are lots of people in there, the odds are much better that you can get a kill or 2 and get out to land them. You still have the same 4 top sticks, but there are also a lot of average pilots and probably some new guys. So the percentage chance of winning a fight is much higher.  When its under 10, those odds go down dramatically for the average pilot.

Its a bit like hitting your head against a brick wall.
You try it, and it hurts, but you really want to do this and get through, so you try it again.
And you keep trying it until the pain level eventually gets high enough to override your desire.

Its the same with the WWI arena. Eventually either you master it, and become one of the 5 or 6 top sticks, or the pain and frustration drives you away. Personally I loved the first tour, 2nd tour started hurting, and by the end of the 3rd tour I'd look at the arena screen and alt F4. I would go do anything that was less frustrating and painful.

More things to do, that involve flying, that take a certain amount of skill, and daring, with a certain amount of risk, and that leaves you feeling ready to maybe go take another crack at that furball.

 

[Banshee7]

Did you come from AvA?

Since you're such an acm god why aren't you in the dueling tournament?  Or is it that you're really just a self-richeous ego driven twit with an over-inflated view of herself that wouldn't last more than the first turn against anyone other than an uninitiated noob?

See you in the tourney... or not.

I love you...

[BGB the 3RD]

Worm
... can you beat a dr1?? Of course you can, especially given a small advantage in e or alt.

Using stats to read reality in game play can be wrong
 We have a much smaller % of field to sample

That's like saying the spitfire is #1...using stats

.how many play ww1
...50? Maybe? I only get a small time in early Pacific standard Time

[BGB the 3RD]

715, what shade do you fly under ...we can playpin the dr1

[Ghosth]

Exactly Lusche, its another way of saying the exact same thing, except yours is shorter.

If the only thing there was to do in AH, is fly into a small furball of 4 - 10 people, and try to win a 1 on 1 duel with one of the top 10 people in AH. How many people do you think would keep paying to do just that? The mains would be a ghost town. Its the mains diversity that keeps people there even if they are not having a great day. Because there are many different things to do.

The WWI arena is a 1 trick pony, that's all he does. If you want people to stay there, your need to give them other things to do.

^^^^
This.

Or from another point of view: the (LW) MA gives players a way to "win" (and thus have fun) in many different way, on many different levels, even when not being one of the top-notch fighter guys.

[pervert]

Done a bit of testing in game today between the 3 fighters was kinda shocked by the results tbh especially in dive which I had previously believed the d7 to have a huge advantage in, at approx 175mph the DR1 has bottom wing failure + elevators Camel suffers wing failure at around 180mph D7 loses wheels at 180mph and 186mph elevators come off.

This is an area I believed the camel and especially the D7 was markedly superior in. Theres a 11mph difference from top to bottom. The camel I still belive to be a match for the DR1 but the lack of the ability to adjust views means you end up losing angles you can't afford while wating to regain sight of the opponent. Short of cheating by making a glass cockpit 

I'd have to revise my earlier view on the DR1 no matter how much I love it, based on the fact you can't fight what you can't see it is a mismatched arena because of the DR1 or the lack of a faster plane  .

To alot of the frequent players credit though they use the d7 more 

Perhaps a Spad or SE5A is in order for the good of the arena, even I get bored flying the DR1 all the time.

[Nosara]

Once we add zeppelins and bombs and base capturing we will have no arenas (except the lame DA) where there are no hordes, no base taking BS, and no pure dogfighting.

Add zeppelins, bombs, and other MA BS, WWI loses appeal to the people that enjoy it now. So, if you don't like WWI as it is now, maybe it is because you are a horde dwelling, bomberish, base taking twit that lacks the skill to compete in WWI as it is now. My suggestion to those people who want the MA BS added to WWI would be to stay far, far away from WWI Arena. Stay in your hordes fellas.


perdweeb

Calling Center say again, You are broken and un-readable.

[715]

715, what shade do you fly under ...we can playpin the dr1

My "shade" is 715B, but after last night I won't fly in the WWI arena anymore.  Normally when there is something new or different in AH, I reserve judgment until it has settled in for several weeks or even months, as changes tend to grow on you.  I have to say that each time I've flown in the WWI arena I've actually liked it less and less to the point now where I pretty much hate it.  Part of that is due to the arena now being populated mostly with experts which means I do absolutely nothing but die repeatedly.  Part is really that I am so sick of the flight model.  I have no idea whatsoever if the flight model is accurate, it probably is.  I'm just saying it's annoying.  It's like trying to thread a needle that's attached to a bobble head.

But that's OK.  The WWI arena can be for experts to duel each other (kinda of what the AvA turns into periodically).

[BaldEagl]

I popped into the WWI arena last night.  I never left the tower.  There were three Bish, all with K/S >1 and K/D >2 fighting one Rook with both K/S and K/D <1.  Since I'm always a Bish I thought about switching sides but decided to go to the LWMA instead.  I figured the Rook would soon tire of dying and them I'd be left being fodder for the "experten".

It seems to me in a situation like that the "experten" ought to switch sides to balance things out.  Had that been the case I might have tried to fly there.  As it was there was no reason for me to up as a Bish and make matters worse nor did I care to go through the frustration of facing three guys more familiar with the flight models than me.

[CptTrips]

Here is my take on it, there simply is not enough to do to keep people interested as it is now.

Ghost,

I think your WWI arena experience mirrors mine almost exactly.  

I think the arena got that way because the initial player base, which was composed of a wide range of skill levels that I think is vital to a healthy arena ecosystem, slowly evaporated away until there were 15 or so hard core experten who had completely mastered that flight model.  That self-reinforces to inhibit any new players who might drop in.  Especially, as you pointed out, there are no game-play options other than getting on the conveyor belt that leads into the single meat-grinder of the arena.  I think you lose that player diversity, as you suggested, because there are no game-play options, no additional ways to experience the WWI arena universe.  I know the purists will howl and rail that all you ever need is the pure furball, but the majority of players will quickly lose interest, and what you end up with is a small, closed, 15 player gentleman’s club.  

My earlier challenge to HTC to remove all strat, bombers, vehicles, and base capture from their WWII arenas was only rhetorical.  I know they would never do that.  They know they would never do that.  The “dogfight-only” purists know they would never do that.  They would lose their business.  THAT is illuminating.  Maybe back in 1995 you could get away with a dog-fight only format…maybe.  But not in 2010.  The bar has been moved much higher than that.  HTC has largely been responsible for doing that.  Their playerbase has come to expect that deep level of interactivity, variety, and immersion that they have seen in the WWII MA.  

There are a wide variety of missions that can be accomplished by a wide variety of skill levels in the WWII MA.  And those players will enjoy those tasks because what they do has a real EFFECT on the game-world.  They can contribute to their teams identifiable WIN condition.  And opposing team members don’t want them to win, or themselves to lose, so they resist those missions.  Now you start getting a whole expanding tree of potential combat situations from those interacting missions and counter missions.  THAT is what creates and maintains a healthy arena ecosystem.  Remove that, and you end up with static, sterile, one dimensional game-play.
  

Now, I have never been too sure of what you are suggesting by these other activities that don’t have to do with “winning-the-war” or base capture.  I wish you would provide some exact, detailed examples.  I don’t want to appear to disagree without understanding fully.  However, I’m pretty sure that what ever it is would HAVE to have a real, identifiable effect on the game world for it to hold peoples interest.  I’m pretty sure, to be effecteive, there would eventually have to be some kind of win-the-war goal to generate the level of intensity you get in the Mains.  It has to achieve something or people will quickly lose interest.  It can’t just be an amusement, or busy work.  That would provide a temporary sugar high, but not solve the underlying problem with the WWI arena design.


  BTW, I’ve said it before, and shouldn’t have to reiterate, but I will.  I have the untmost respect for HTC and think they did an exceptional job modeling the WWI aircraft.  Which just makes it all the more heartbreaking.  I feel their efforts are being wasted.  It’s the arena design those aircraft are embedded in that is failing them.  It could be so much more.


Regards,
Wab