Hurricane Vs. Spitfire (Battle of Britain)

[Hawklore]

Sorry guys, I need some help arguing for the Hurri.

We all know performance wise the Spitfire obviously wins.

Now, what about pilot protection?

I'm seeing conflicting reports that the Hurri was or was not equipped with armor plates for the pilot. They were or were not modified with metal structures, and they were or were not modified with self sealing tanks.

I'm sure post BOB they were. But I'm talking BOB.

[CAP1]

actually, i've read(fairly often) that the hurricane was a much more stable gun platform, and could pretty much out turn a spitfire, and a 109.........

[oakranger]

actually, i've read(fairly often) that the hurricane was a much more stable gun platform, and could pretty much out turn a spitfire, and a 109.........

Ok, now did the Spit II came out during the BoB (ass end of the battle) or after?  If it did came out during, can the Hurr still out preformed it? 

[Zygote404]

First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940.  The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane.  Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.

Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.

[Guppy35]

Early Hurricanes had fabric wings as well as the fuselage behind the cockpit.  The fuselage fabric remained although they did go to an all metal wing.  Not many fabric wing Hurri's left by the B of B though.   Both the Hurricane and Spitfire had their fuel tanks right in front of the pilot.  Both had armor glass added to the front of the windscreen and both had armor plate behind the pilot.    Initially both planes did not have armor plate or self sealing fuel tanks.

By the time of the B of B, the armor plate, self sealing gas tanks, etc were standard on both fighters.

The Spit II was basically a Spitfire I built at the Castle Bromwich factory instead of the factory at Southampton.  Somewhat similar to comparing the P51B to P51C or Spit LFIX to LFXVI.  About the only visible difference is the Koffman starter bulge on the front right of the engine that eliminated the need for an external starter cart for the Spitfire.  Spit IIs did get retrofitted with metal ailerons at some point when the airwar was being taken to France in 1941.  You'll also find photos of Spit IIs with a more rounded propeller spinner in some cases.

The first Spit IIs did arrive at the tail end of the B of B and the only flying B of B survivor Spitfire is a Spitfire II with the RAF Battle of Britain Flight.

[Pigslilspaz]

First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940.  The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane.  Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.

Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.

also, if i'm remembering correctly, the IIb also had a 12 gun platform?

[oakranger]

First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940.  The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane.  Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.

Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.

Thanks for clearing that up, Good info!

also, if i'm remembering correctly, the IIb also had a 12 gun platform?

I have heard something about one of the Hurr models having the 12 gun platform.  Where is Ack-Ack or Larry?  I bet they will say something about it.

[Masherbrum]

The 303 "Kosciuszko" Squadron had the most victories out of any RAF squadron, in the Battle of Britain.  They flew Hurricane Mk. 1's. 

[VoX]

The Spit II was basically a Spitfire I built at the Castle Bromwich factory instead of the factory at Southampton

Inaccurate I am afraid.The difference between the Spit 1 and the Spit II was the engine, The Spit 1 had a Merlin III 1030 hp where the MkII had a Merlin XII 1175 hp.

As for armour, both the hurricane and the spitfire had pilot armour. As far as structure is concerned and not skin the hurricane had a metal tubular frame and if I can dig out a schematic here i will post it later. (I have seen some of the Blueprints for the Hurricane on site somewhere!)

As has been stated the Spitfire was always the better fighter and I think it was Bob Doe who said when asked which the question of which was the better fighter he replied although the Hurricane shot down more aircraft during the BoB the hurricane alone could not have won the battle had it been the sole fighter where as the spitfire could have.

VoX

[RTHolmes]

MkII had constant speed prop too, vast improvement on the previous dual-pitch prop. pilots liked this

[rogerdee]

Originally the hurricane had no armour.During the battle of France i believe no1 squadron (i could be wrong) started fitting armour behind the pilot seat
from fairy battles.After this was proved to work and hand no effects on the handling it was then decided to fit armour to all hurricanes.
The hurricane had the highest number of victories because there were more of them If there had been more spitfires and less Hurricanes it would have been the other way around.

[Shuffler]

Have any of you fellas been invited to speak at the Spitfire Survivor Meets ( not sure what it is called) in England?

I'm thinking one has.

The Hurris main job was to attack the bombers while the spits fought the fighter cover. I read this on a gum wrapper.


I also read this on a gum wrapper....... "big shots are usually of low caliber"..... has nothing to do with this thread but I thought it was funny.

[oakranger]

Have any of you fellas been invited to speak at the Spitfire Survivor Meets ( not sure what it is called) in England?

I'm thinking one has.

The Hurris main job was to attack the bombers while the spits fought the fighter cover. I read this on a gum wrapper.


I also read this on a gum wrapper....... "big shots are usually of low caliber"..... has nothing to do with this thread but I thought it was funny.

lol, good reference coming off a gum wrapper. 

[Guppy35]

Inaccurate I am afraid.The difference between the Spit 1 and the Spit II was the engine, The Spit 1 had a Merlin III 1030 hp where the MkII had a Merlin XII 1175 hp.

VoX

The key word was basically the same.  The II was the Spit I with all the in service refinements through June 1940.  Some Mark Is were also retrofitted with the Merlin XII.  Same airframe etc.  Again it's like comparing the LFIXe to the LFXVIe.  Same bird, slightly different engine with similar performance built at different factories.  That and the II having the Coffman starter as mentioned previously.

The constant speed props were developed for the Spit I and Hurri I as well.  They did start with the two blade fixed pitch, then the three blade two pitch props, but were constant speed props by the B of B.

[Ack-Ack]

Thanks for clearing that up, Good info!

I have heard something about one of the Hurr models having the 12 gun platform.  Where is Ack-Ack or Larry?  I bet they will say something about it.

I'm pretty sure it was the Hurricane IIA Series 2 (later renamed to Hurricane IIB in early '41) that had the 12 .303 machine guns.  This Hurricane though was largly intended to be used in the intruder role as it also fitted with racks that allowed the IIB to carry either 2x 250lb or 2x 500lb bombs or two 45 gallon drop tanks that essentially doubled the Hurricane IIB's fuel load.  The price of these modifications came at a price though as it lowered the top speed of the IIB to just above 300mph.

ack-ack