Author Topic: First World War officially ends  (Read 3708 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2010, 11:26:40 AM »
I wanted to know why Germany was allowed to build her forces up before WWII when she was suppose to be making restitution payments. How much do you think all of those Unterseeboots or both the Bismark and Tirpitz cost? When Spain's civil war (July17th, 1936 – April 1st, 1939) erupted, Germany, Italy and Portugal were requested to aid the Nationalists. Germany used the opportunity to cut her teeth on her new military, which was in direct defiance of the Treaty of Versailles. Remember these provisions?

Part V of the treaty begins with the preamble, "In order to render possible the initiation of a general limitation of the armaments of all nations, Germany undertakes strictly to observe the military, naval and air clauses which follow."

German armed forces will number no more than 100,000 troops, and conscription will be abolished.
Enlisted men will be retained for at least 12 years; officers to be retained for at least 25 years.
German naval forces will be limited to 15,000 men, 6 battleships (no more than 10,000 tons displacement each), 6 cruisers (no more than 6,000 tons displacement each), 12 destroyers (no more than 800 tons displacement each) and 12 torpedo boats (no more than 200 tons displacement each). No submarines are to be included.
The manufacture, import, and export of weapons and poison gas is prohibited.
Armed aircraft, tanks and armoured cars are prohibited.
Blockades on ships are prohibited.
Restrictions on the manufacture of machine guns (e.g. the Maxim machine gun) and rifles (e.g. Gewehr 98 rifles).

In reading such, one wonders... how does a country not allowed to have armed vehicles cut their airforce's teeth in battle? Uh oh, seems they had extra money. Just saying. Which is also why I asked Traveler about it. I have a hard time accepting that the allies were so eager to fight the war, France in particular, then get back their territories (see France again) only to wuss out when the guy who owes them money is hiding behind: "I'm broke, and if you don't believe me, just don't look at Spain when you investigate my claim." I haven't touched 1940 yet, let alone 1947, 1950 etc etc..

Secondly, why on earth would you put in a stipulation of payment when you are uncertain of the possible fulfillment of said stipulation? (this is in rebuke to your statement) What if Germany had NEVER reunified? If I were West Germany and East Germany, I'd never agree to new terms as the only way I have to pay you back currently is if I fulfill condition (A)... so I'll make condition (A) unobtainable. Are we going to go to war if they refuse to pay? We've seen the answer to that. I'd be safe in betting no. A contract can not be changed unless all parties agree and when Germany did reunite, we believed ourselves above such a global war. What if they had still said no? I mean how many years without full payments went by? I wish MY creditors were that forgiving.

It seems as if the world is hesitant to punish unless it's out of perportion. Germany was put as totally at fault for WWI, yet we've sat here talking about the idea of Serbia starting it, or Austria-Hungary, or even Britain. Germany was doing as her treaty required, as was France, Italy, Russia, Bulgaria, Japan, Chine etc etc. So Germany is at fault for being an faithful participant in what all others hold themselves to be, not just as faithful, but also above everyone else. Remember in 1939 when this tiny country west of Germany helped her invade? I think it was called the USSR... but it was so small, who would care. Then they got back stabbed and switched sides. Does that nullify any guilt they had for assisting in the start of the war? What about the fact Russia was intent on helping Germany even further until Operation Barbarossa halted such designs.

If you look at history, you must accept it's inconsistencies, but also one must understand WHY they even exist in the first place. I do not disagree with blatant facts, but this one isn't straight forward. It leaves many open questions as to why certain people's were punished while others who had just as much, or more, guilt are allowed to avoid persecution.

I'm sure I missed something, or left an open statement somewhere, but I'm in a hurry this morning, sorry.

So you are now of the opinion that events were already heading in the favor or World War before Wilson... How then is it's Wilson's fault? How is any one man at fault for such world events? You might site Hitler, but he was no alone. His party, his people, Russia, those who ignored him; they are ALL at fault for allowing him to be there. Our world is not cloistered, nor has it been for many a century. World events transpire as a result of many actions. Wilson might have done something differently, Britian might have. Serbia might have. The idea is to understand WHERE the errors lay, not who is easiest to blame. A child will lie, but that doesn't mean just because you don't understand that they are lying, yet many parent's assume so. I myself am guilty of such my with my niece. It was easy, she was 3. I'm an adult, so I know better and that means she has to be wrong... Yet I was. History is the same. Remember in 1800? evolution was BAD, it was WRONG, it was Heresy. Today anything but is considered uneducated. A man in Iran say the holocaust didn't happen, does that make it so? We must use reason and logic to interpret events.

Quotes and books are fine, so long as you can logically string your argument up so when someone tugs on it it doesn't come crashing down. As I said in a previous answer, Wilson was elected in after a vast majority of the events needed for World War were already in place. Let's say he wanted war... so did France and Austria-Hungary. Which is right? Is France right because we won the war with her? Or is she right solely because she won... If you say she was wrong, then obviously we need to look at who is at fault for WWII. If she was right, why wasn't Austria-Hungary? Double standards are no good in arguments because they can be used to smack your side down before it even starts...

Britain is no in the spell check lol I might have misspelled it again, I found one error already but Spell check never found it... hmmm

First off sport, I quoted nothing.   You continue to spell Britain incorrectly, but attempt to correct others in different areas, there's a double standard.

As for "Why they were allowed to build?"   Simple, they had a genius amongst them.   His name was Erhard Milch.   I suggest you read "The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe" written by him.   Prior to WWII he was the Head of Lufthansa.  He was a master at all things logistical.   The Germans played shell game with their built weapons and the allies were not able to keep tabs on everything.   Before you know it, they've amassed a lot of weaponry from Uboats, BB's, airplanes, tanks and small arms.  

They built all of this stuff while most of the country was near poverty.   Hitler chose the Military over the civilians, because of illusions of grandeur.   As for your continued "What If's?", they are unrealistic and have no bearing as Germany has paid off the debt.   It is for naught.  
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Offline Traveler

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #76 on: October 06, 2010, 11:39:58 AM »
so first world has ended then? :old:

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Offline zack1234

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #77 on: October 06, 2010, 11:47:12 AM »
  :rofl :rofl
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Offline Charge

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2010, 01:04:22 AM »
This might be interesting read if the concept of "how they built their armed forces" is changed to "why they built it": http://www.amazon.com/Illusion-Victory-America-World-War/dp/0465024696/ref=pd_cp_b_2

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2010, 01:33:58 AM »
Just waded through this thread and it seems like folks are over complicating things a bit. 

As for SEseph's question about why was Germany allowed to rebuild etc.  I think it comes down to the rest of the world not having the stomach to do anything about it.  I remember as a little kid walking into the little church in small town South Dakota where my folks grew up.  Population under 100.  On the wall was the list of WW1 dead from that town and it was a dozen guys.  Now that's small town US.  We hadn't even been in WW1 that long.  Think of those that bore the brunt of the fighting from 1914-18 and I'd imagine the numbers would be staggering for those little towns in those countries.  With that war still fresh in the minds of everyone, why would they believe that Hitler would be wanting to fight it again.  Throw in the depression and saving the world goes down the list somewhere below food and shelter for one's family.

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Offline captain1ma

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2010, 09:00:40 AM »
good now they can start paying back WW2 war reparations! No wonder the germans are a cranky bunch!

Offline zack1234

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2010, 09:10:20 AM »
Do you mind my dog is German!

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Offline captain1ma

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2010, 10:10:39 AM »
is he cranky?

Offline zack1234

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2010, 11:03:58 AM »
actually he is  :joystick:

You can have a argument with wife and he will just lie there, drop a spoon and he's attacking the door

He is a very large German Shepard
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Offline SEseph

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2010, 04:11:54 PM »
First off sport, I quoted nothing.   You continue to spell Britain incorrectly, but attempt to correct others in different areas, there's a double standard.

As for "Why they were allowed to build?"   Simple, they had a genius amongst them.   His name was Erhard Milch.   I suggest you read "The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe" written by him.   Prior to WWII he was the Head of Lufthansa.  He was a master at all things logistical.   The Germans played shell game with their built weapons and the allies were not able to keep tabs on everything.   Before you know it, they've amassed a lot of weaponry from Uboats, BB's, airplanes, tanks and small arms.  

They built all of this stuff while most of the country was near poverty.   Hitler chose the Military over the civilians, because of illusions of grandeur.   As for your continued "What If's?", they are unrealistic and have no bearing as Germany has paid off the debt.   It is for naught.  

I'm not even going to start with personal attacks like my spelling. I've covered that already this thread. They are just childish. The quote was because of your citing your Book. I assumed it was taken from such, if not, do these small insignificant nuances really destroy an argument?

I asked the question, because I needed clarification in my mind. Sometimes just having someone else word it helps. I learned some new things from it, I confirmed some old. From you though, I have received answers that do with the future of where my questions lay. This time you point to chiefly one man yet that also is false. In order for him to have been in a position to do anything he did, other events would have been required; from failure of intelligence, to the want of blissful self induced ignorance or just the folly of ignoring history's 'what ifs.' Just because a debt was repaid, doesn't mean the event goes away from history. You might find that in thae level 300 book too.

Each event presents with it lessons, but in order to learn some of these, you must ask questions of the event. Hypothetical 'What ifs' are how we sometimes obtain these answers. We rely on the hypothetical each and every day. Our greatest inventors played the 'what if' game. The Manhattan project was 100% theory until it was at an end. It was a HUGE 'what if.' 'What ifs' do not harm, they elicit discussion and intellectual banter. But in order to make the discussion of any value, you must be open to thinking about the other side. I fully understand what we were taught, but just because it is what we currently believe, doesn't necessarily make it right. Who grew up with 8 planets here? No one, we grew up with 9. Were we wrong or did the information we had, and the way we define our world change? I am opening the possibility there are 8 planets instead of 9. Maybe I am wrong... but maybe you are as well.


As for SEseph's question about why was Germany allowed to rebuild etc.  I think it comes down to the rest of the world not having the stomach to do anything about it.

Thanks Guppy, well put

In WWI, everyone had something to gain from the war or were drug in by treaty. Britain sided with the easiest of the choices because even a neutral nation sometimes is making a choice in her silence.

This is the reason Hitler was able to do what he did. This time it didn't benefit the high and mighty nations to enforce a treaty and could hurt them should they step up. Maybe we should have played a 'What If' game then...

Anyway, back to the initial reason I said anything in this forum. Britain started WWI by her inaction and a little cowardice by her leadership. The nations didn't have the sense of duty to enforce something they gained little to nothing from should they enforce it, which opened the way for Hitler to step right in. My view of events gives the same wars, the same people, the same events. What my view gives that the commonly accepted view does not is a new way of interpreting such events.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2010, 05:02:19 PM »
Each event presents with it lessons, but in order to learn some of these, you must ask questions of the event. Hypothetical 'What ifs' are how we sometimes obtain these answers.

...

Maybe we should have played a 'What If' game then...
A couple of things about 'What ifs.' 

The farther back in time one goes, the harder is is to say how subsequent events would have unfolded.  The effect of a different outcome of WW1, for example, could have radically altered or prevented WW2.   

A significant change in a detail might only slightly change the course of history.  Had Moscow fallen in 1941, Germany probably would still have lost the war.  Hmm.  I am disagreeing with myself.  Let's see, Moscow falls, Germany gets nuked into the stone age, the Cold War doesn't happen ...  maybe a huge change in history.

'What if' can be fun, but it is not an exact science.

Britain started WWI by her inaction and a little cowardice by her leadership.
With regards to the opinion that Britain caused WW1, it is an over simplification.  The causes of WW1 are many.  Imperialism and industrialization are major factors.  If Britain stepped in and somehow calmed Austria-Hungary in 1914, competition for colonies and resources would likely have provided another flashpoint.  Impossible to say for sure.  I will concede that Britain (and even Woodrow) had roles in the origins of the Great War, but they were not the only causes.

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Offline BrownBaron

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2010, 05:14:42 PM »
I always thought that WWI ended on November 11 at 11 pm. at least thats what the history books say

It isn't the anniversary of the agreements that ended the fighting, but rather the complete closure of the war through payment of reperations of the defeated countries to the victors.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2010, 05:22:00 PM »
I'm amazed by this thread.
When it came up, I felt like adding something to the discussion, but then refrained from it. Because only a few months ago, I was ruled #14 and a thread was locked when I answered a purely historical question for the very era because

Quote from: Skuzzy
Yes Virginia, even historical discussions of politics is not allowed.
 

And now a similar thread is not only allowed, but even moved to the appropriate forum?

 :headscratch:

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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2010, 06:47:28 PM »
I'm amazed by this thread.
When it came up, I felt like adding something to the discussion, but then refrained from it. Because only a few months ago, I was ruled #14 and a thread was locked when I answered a purely historical question for the very era because
 

And now a similar thread is not only allowed, but even moved to the appropriate forum?

 :headscratch:



i think it all depends on who's opinion you were disagreeing with and how much they complained to Skuzzy about how intelligent your post was and they felt it was unfair that you be allowed to post opinions that they werent smart enough to argue against.

post away lusche, i for one generally enjoy reading your thoughts on most subjects. even if i dont always agree with you, i usually understand your trail of logic and find your words interesting intelligent and entertaining.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: First World War officially ends
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2010, 06:57:14 PM »
i think it all depends on who's opinion you were disagreeing with and how much they complained to Skuzzy about how intelligent your post was and they felt it was unfair that you be allowed to post opinions that they werent smart enough to argue against.

No disagreement, no argument at all. No reference to modern politics, no hidden agenda stuff or trolling. Just two posts: A purely historical question, a short and factual answer and *boom* #14 and thread locked after just that two posts with the reason given above.

Of course since then I steered clear of anything having to do with history. And now a thread purely with a discussion about historical politics. Just makes me wonder.
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