Remove overload ammo from all but 1 P-47

[321BAR]

We have the 267 round option w/8 fifties...I'm gonna try it out now and see what kind of difference it makes.

it makes a good amount of difference in the flying... at least i have seen a difference

[Stoney]

Well, if I remember correctly from a link someone else posted, the Ma Deuce ammo came in 50 round belts, so for the armorers, it would be easy to link 6 belts to come up with the 300 round number, whereas to link 5 standard belts, then a 6th with 17 rounds would be a little awkward, especially since they couldn't get an even number of 17 round belts out of a standard 50 round belt. (Of course, (2) 17 round belts and a single 16 round belt could).  The 267 round limit probably came from some technical order that used the precise number to come to the design load of the ammo combined with the bombs or drops.  Considering that the P-47N, for example, had hardpoints that could carry the 300 gallon drop tanks (single 2000+ lb load), I'd say that even with a 165 gallon tank (at about 1000 lbs), you could safely assume it could withstand the additional ammo without exceeding the design load.  Of course, with the biggest drops, there was a +3 g limit.  May have something to do with loading the hardpoint to some weight that allows the maximum design load for the hardest maneuvering.  I don't know.  Here's the limits from the P-47N POH...



Now, the technical order is necessary in order to preserve the manufacturer's contract liabilities with respect to combat performance--i.e. Republic guarantees the USAAF that the P-47 will perform as advertised as long as the specified weight limits are followed.  Sort of like engine limitations that we often debate because some pilot said his crew chief changed the turbo regulator to allow him to pull 75" in his P-47D-5 or something.  

As far as the anecdotes go, obviously most were about ground attack profiles, but I remember one, if I remember correctly, about a pilot in Italy having an overload ammo load for air-to-air action.  I remember because I believe the aircraft was hastily configured, and the pilot didn't know what his convergence was set at, or how much ammo he had, since it wasn't his normal aircraft.  Anyway, I'll see if I can't find it, but I can't really remember if it was from one of my books, or from a link someone else posted, or something on Mike Williams site.  

You bring up a good issue Krusty, I'm just curious as HTC typically deliberately models the aircraft for specific ordnance configurations and I'd be curious as to see why they included the overload ammo packages for all of the Jug models.  Not that they haven't made tweaks before, but they did it initially for a reason, rather than arbitrarily...

[Stoney]

it makes a good amount of difference in the flying... at least i have seen a difference

I think its 25 lbs per 200 rounds, so a 163 lb difference in weight out far on the wings.  Should make the roll rate a little more sluggish, which is what I typically perceive.  Turning shouldn't change much as its not a huge percentage of the overall lead bellybutton the P-47 normally has anyway...

[FLS]

The P-47 models didn't have 425 rpg. The D11 didn't, the D25 didn't, the N didn't, and the M didn't.

One single group used the overload ammo load solely for ground attack and strafing. These would be late war D-40 types (or close enough), so if it must be left in-game, leave it only on our D-40. Remove the 400-round option on the other craft.

<snip>

I've used it myself, more than enough. It's nice. It's just totally inaccurate.

By a totally unrelated coincidence the D-40 is the only Jug that wasn't used to shoot Krusty down last tour.
Seriously I don't think that motivates the wish, I just think it's funny. 

[beau32]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-encounter-reports.html

I am all for historical flying and weapon load outs. So, since I am TDY to Lackland AFB being board sitting in the hotel room, I spent all morning looking at every single combat reports on this page, and I found a few with over 2 grand of ammo used, but these two below were the highest ones I found. Some reports didnt put how many rounds they fired, so its hard to really see what was used in some of the reports.

This pilot fired (or carried) 2300 rounds which is 287.5 rounds a gun for a 8 gun package, and 383.3 rounds for a 6 gun package.


This pilot fired (or carried) 2434 rounds which is 304.5 rounds a gun for a 8 gun package, and 405.6 rounds for a 6 gun package.


The reports dont specify which gun package, but I am most likely going to say 8 guns.

Also intresting in reading some of these, it seems a API load out on the inboard 6 guns and Incendiary rounds in the 2 outboard guns. The pilots who flew with this found it worked for them very well.

[oakranger]

I see one noob did a HO shot on the second report. 

[Dichotomy]

Those are awesome Beau.  I loathe displaying my ignorance but I'm curios as to why they listed their load outs on their reports.  I'm sure there was a reason for it I just have no idea what that reason is. 

[beau32]

Those are awesome Beau.  I loathe displaying my ignorance but I'm curios as to why they listed their load outs on their reports.  I'm sure there was a reason for it I just have no idea what that reason is. 

Well, just about everything in the military is accountable. Every single round would be accountable, As im sure it helps with logistics and what not.  Also shows that the pilot isnt just spraying thin air though in the reports expending 2434 rounds for a single 109 is a bit much, unless he just sucks at aiming, but who knows what else he did that day that he didnt put in his report.

[Dichotomy]

Clears that up.  Thanks and thanks for posting those.  Fascinating reading.

*heads off to CO's office to explain why I never come back with ammo on board.

[Krusty]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-encounter-reports.html

This pilot fired (or carried) 2300 rounds which is 287.5 rounds a gun for a 8 gun package, and 383.3 rounds for a 6 gun package.

This pilot fired (or carried) 2434 rounds which is 304.5 rounds a gun for a 8 gun package, and 405.6 rounds for a 6 gun package.

The reports dont specify which gun package, but I am most likely going to say 8 guns.

I'm not convinced because, as you say, 8 guns is more likely. That's a mere 10 rounds more in the one listing and a few more in the second but still it's a lot closer to 267 than it is to 425 when you're considering 300 rounds.

I think it would be an overload situation, sure, where more than "normal" was loaded, but surely it's not nearly as stark a situation where there's nearly double the ammo as in Aces High.

In the 305 rpg example... Consider that the 38 extra rounds per gun only lasts about 3 seconds, assuming 600 rpm (it lasts less if the real firing rate is higher!) It's more likely to class that with the 267 rpg option (a variation of it, if you will) than to compare it to the 425 max quoted limit.

I'm entirely unconvinced.

[Stoney]

I'm entirely unconvinced.

Well, its obvious in the second example, that the aircraft was carrying more than 300 rounds per gun regardless...

[Krusty]

It's not so cut and dried there Stoney....

Sure there's a bit of leeway. But loading 1.5 x the ammo (425 / 267) is a lot more than tacking on a few extra rounds for 1.1 x the ammo (300 / 267).

It's a major leap. It's as if there was technically storage to shoe-horn in 1000 rpg so that loadout is an option in-game, despite never having been used. [Edit: Actually, a better example is, you could load 4 guns with over 900 rpg with all the ammo storage space in those wings, but it was never really done so we don't have it in-game.] Maybe in some RARE cases more than 267 was used, but honestly it's looking so far like these were the very rare exceptions to the rule.

Seems like more 109G6s had 30mm than P-47s used 425rpg, or like more 109F4s had gondolas than P-47s had 425 rpg.

How about 190As with Mk103 gunpods under the wings.... They COULD and were tested as such. Never mind they never flew them like that because they weighed too much to turn and burn with, right?

You see my point. It's a valid concern with this or any model in the game. I frankly got tired of asking myself privately "Why is there a 425 rpg option" and started looking into it -- only to find it really wasn't used.

We've had things yanked from the game for less, like WEP on B-26, or WEP on that other really old plane way back (Yak9 I believe). If it's historically inaccurate it ought not be there, and I think this is a case where that's been shown.

[RTHolmes]

since I saw this thread ive been flying the D25 with the lighter 8 gun loadout. havent noticed a massive difference in maneuverability, but I have almost run out of ammo a coupla times. and my gunnery is not great.

the overload is overkill really and wouldnt make a big difference if removed at the moment. maybe introduce some railway yards so we have a good excuse for a strafing (ie. attack mode only) loadout

[Perrine]

For the sake of main arena gameplay, why not just keep overload ammo for p47 and make some changes to perk system.  Main arena is an arcade room and is not really a place to reenact historical stuff.  I think we should give it some leeway for more options and means to pay for it.  

For example, since 109F had the ability to carry gondolas but wasn't as standard as 109Gs then pay small perk pts.  Just make sure HTC only keep this "gamey" option in main arena.

[Stoney]

It's not so cut and dried there Stoney....

Sure there's a bit of leeway. But loading 1.5 x the ammo (425 / 267) is a lot more than tacking on a few extra rounds for 1.1 x the ammo (300 / 267).

I didn't say that meant he had 425 rpg loaded.  All I said was that it was obvious, in this one example, that he had more than 267 rounds loaded, despite the technical order specifying 267 rpg as the maximum allowable.  It doesn't prove anything other than that on occasion at least, they loaded more than the specified maximum...