Angela Merkel

[VonMessa]

Sorry, cannot agree.

When I was back in Hawaii, I worked 5 days a week pushing a broom, driving an old 1999 station wagon, paying for my own food, not eating out because the money isn't there, and generally living just above the poverty line. While I was working and earning my keep, the girls at my school who were at the same income level as my family were spending their time getting knocked up, and taking my tax money to live sometimes more comfortably than I do, while giving nothing back to society.

Yes, EVERYTHING around us was paid for by tax money. But here's the catch, most of us pay back into that system. Folks like you and I give back to society as a whole, be it through tax money, or public service. The majority of these welfare-fed teenage pregnancies however, never end up giving anything back to our society as a whole and just leach of of the public coffer. In my oppinion, if you conceive a child at a certain income level, you should receive ZERO welfare unless something outside of your control occurs to remove some of that income.

And before anyone starts with accusations of elitism, let me remind you, I lived barely above the poverty line. My family collected unemployment for a time, after the business my mother worked for for 20 years closed unexpectedly. We weren't trying to get a cheap ride, my mother spent every day trying to find a permanent job, and taking small gigs here and there in the mean time. And when that happened, we cut our spending, cut our expenses, I got a job, and no more kids popped up. We recognized that we could not afford to live at a certain standard, and by being responsible, we made it through with money to spare, and now I'm going to college and living comfortably, and she is making more money than ever before due to her own dedication and skill, not leaching off of the government as she could have done.



Oh, and I have to agree about jailing those who employ illegals. Remove the incentive to harbor them.

Thanks, Serenity
You saved me from typing all of that.

I also know you, Moray and while you have valid points, I know that you like to argue as much as I do.   

Serenity voiced exactly what I meant.  I am speaking of the folks that suck the marrow from society and do not give anything in return.

[Serenity]

There are many immigrants in the USA who are successful and who are not criminals, pregnant teenagers, etc... We attract the best and the brightest from around the world and many immigrants have built the biz that we all take for granted within the US. For example, the founder of NVIDIA, Jen-Hsun Huang, who creates the video cards that makes many of these 3D games possible is a Taiwanese/Chinese immigrant.

The key here is not the word immigrant, but rather illegal. I have no problem with immigrants whatsoever. One of the smartest kids in my English class here is from Africa originally. One of my best friends and an ex girlfriend was born in Japan. Immigrants are lovely! They make our country what it is. It is the ILLEGAL immigrants I cannot stand. They are violating the law, and yet get the same exact considerations for our government! What kind of a precedent are we setting? You get the same benefits if you break the law to get here than if you took the long legal road, and if you get caught, you just get sent back to try again. Imagine if we handle bank robberies this way.

I also know you, Moray and while you have valid points, I know that you like to argue as much as I do.   

Very true

[Perrine]

[everyone's typing boldly now...]


Germany's officials are already complaining about the diminishing immigration. They also have the problem of "wrong" immigration, that is, illiterate and culturally challenged migrants who only want to keep the profile low while enjoying the German state benefits for the poor. Germany wants to attract the "better" migrants, but there are so many obstacles and minefields on the way to an immigration country that I don't think it will ever work out.
Think of it. want to go to Germany? Well, hmm. Speak German? No? Yes? You are fluent with an accent? Forget it. People with a foreign accent are labeled idiots in Germany.  This is likely to kill Germany in the long run.

America, on the contrary, has a growing population that (mostly) speak English. It might sound stupid, but it is a huge advantage. No, not Mandarin or anything else. People around the world learn English, and it is easier to achieve an acceptable level compared to German (or, even more funny, Dutch or - much worse - Mandarin).  That is a little but very important advantage that might save Americas butt.

[Ardy123]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up in this conversation...

Instead of harboring a protectionist perspective, immigration issues could be 'solved' by encouraging massive direct foreign investment in Mexico and Turkey. There here for the jobs, enable their economies to grow, not only to you reduce the interest in taking the risk of coming to the US or Germany, you have a much stronger trading partner (generating demand for US/German goods).

[CAP1]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up in this conversation...

Instead of harboring a protectionist perspective, immigration issues could be 'solved' by encouraging massive direct foreign investment in Mexico and Turkey. There here for the jobs, enable their economies to grow, not only to you reduce the interest in taking the risk of coming to the US or Germany, you have a much stronger trading partner (generating demand for US/German goods).

they're here because they don't want any responsibility. if they were here for the jobs, then they'd come here legally.

[Perrine]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up in this conversation...

Instead of harboring a protectionist perspective, immigration issues could be 'solved' by encouraging massive direct foreign investment in Mexico and Turkey. There here for the jobs, enable their economies to grow, not only to you reduce the interest in taking the risk of coming to the US or Germany, you have a much stronger trading partner (generating demand for US/German goods).

With the war against the drug cartels in Mexico going on right now, I don't think it's that attractive for investment. Mexico is also relatively better off than several of its neighbors and already attracts migrants looking for work.

[phatzo]

With the war against the drug cartels in Mexico going on right now, I don't think it's that attractive for investment. Mexico is also relatively better off than several of its neighbors and already attracts migrants looking for work.

Mexico wants to build a wall on its southern border to stop the inflow of its illegal neighbors. 

[Ardy123]

they're here because they don't want any responsibility. if they were here for the jobs, then they'd come here legally.

Well, I'm glad we harbor no prejudgment about all of them, because they all behave the same and are the same. I mean if we did, we would only be setting them up for failure in our minds as we would go out of our way to find cases that reinforce our preformed beliefs.

[CAP1]

Well, I'm glad we harbor no prejudgment about all of them, because they all behave the same and are the same. I mean if we did, we would only be setting them up for failure in our minds as we would go out of our way to find cases that reinforce our preformed beliefs.

no, we aren;t setting them up for failure.

by breaking the law, and then continuing to break the law each and every second of every minute of every day that they breathe in this country.....they are setting themselves up for failure.

 if they truly wanted to become a responsible member of our society, then they would come here legally.

 i have no problems whatsoever with legal immigrants. it's the illegal immigrants i have problems with. i will not hesitate to turn anyof them in to ins. they are robbing each of us blind.

[Serenity]

Well, I'm glad we harbor no prejudgment about all of them, because they all behave the same and are the same. I mean if we did, we would only be setting them up for failure in our minds as we would go out of our way to find cases that reinforce our preformed beliefs.

What right do they have at all to anything in this country let alone freedom from prejudice? After all, we aren't grouping them together as Mexicans, or even as immigrants, but rather as ILLEGAL immigrants, a group they CHOSE to join of their own free will.

[Scherf]

With the war against the drug cartels in Mexico going on right now, I don't think it's that attractive for investment. Mexico is also relatively better off than several of its neighbors and already attracts migrants looking for work.

The true cost of outsourcing is one of those inconvenient things the Wise Men Of Wall Street love to overlook. Armed guards on the factory floor to suppress the blood fueds, payoffs to all & sundry, neolithic concepts of "quality", the list goes on. But hey, the mwarket loves that outsourcing stuff, and they'll put us all out of a job if we don't beat last quarter's cost numbers.

I remember when I worked briefly for BMW yea these many, many moons ago that they were closing the old 3-series production line near Munich, as the proportion of Turkish workers was much higher and, even with local skilled workers directing the show, they couldn't get the quality they needed.

[Ardy123]

After all, we aren't grouping them together as Mexicans, or even as immigrants, but rather as ILLEGAL immigrants, a group they CHOSE to join of their own free will.

they're here because they don't want any responsibility. if they were here for the jobs, then they'd come here legally.

Actually, if I am understanding cap correctly, cap is grouping them all as lazy, non-working freeloaders. In reality, they tend to be the hardest working group, they get exploited on a daily basis by citizens that have promised them a dream that they will prob never have. In, my experience, where it falls apart is their children who get, torn between cultures and receive a lack of guidance due to their parents working non-stop and the rest of the family structure not being available. Its this lack of family presence which leads them to gangs, etc.. which serve as a surrogate family.

[Perrine]

Actually, if I am understanding cap correctly, cap is grouping them all as lazy, non-working freeloaders. In reality, they tend to be the hardest working group, they get exploited on a daily basis by citizens that have promised them a dream that they will prob never have.

That's part of the deal if you're in illegaly.  

As for legals, legals who are only in H1B work visa stage get a bit exploited too.  They can't complain like most american workers, they do what they're told promptly or else employers won't sponsor you for greencard.  One thing you should never ever do is argue with the boss even though he/she's wrong. This scenario is most prevalent in small and medium sized business.
Depending on what state they reside naturalization takes 8 to 10 years averages, I recomend they should have more than $100,000 to pay for legal fees (assuming the immigration lawyer is top notch) and for renewing work visa before even thinking about permanently settleling to US. Obviously this kind of pathway renders most south-of the-border-runner types ineligible, but they cleverly continue to flood in with impunity anyway.  

[CAP1]

Actually, if I am understanding cap correctly, cap is grouping them all as lazy, non-working freeloaders. In reality, they tend to be the hardest working group, they get exploited on a daily basis by citizens that have promised them a dream that they will prob never have. In, my experience, where it falls apart is their children who get, torn between cultures and receive a lack of guidance due to their parents working non-stop and the rest of the family structure not being available. Its this lack of family presence which leads them to gangs, etc.. which serve as a surrogate family.

if you are unable to understand the difference between lazy and irresponsible, then there is no use in trying to get through to you.

[Ardy123]

if you are unable to understand the difference between lazy and irresponsible, then there is no use in trying to get through to you.

Well obviously you don't believe they came here to work, but I guess your short term memory is as quality as your logic.

If they were here for the jobs, then they'd come here legally.