ki 84 plane set

[CDR1]

I looked through here to see if anyone had mentioned the ki 84 Ic, it would be a nice addition to the IJA set of planes, and give the ability to hammer bombers with some authority from the Japanese side. I have no idea which planes had success shooting down b29's but the ki 84Ic would be a likely candidate.

[1Boner]

There has been quite a bit of discussion on the "C" variant.

The general concensis has been that there really isn't any info suggesting that it was used in sufficient numbers to warrant inclusion in the game.

I don't know if I agree with that train of thought as info on production numbers is virtually non existent or extremely vague.

The Ki-84lb however was generally considered to have the numbers to include in the game.

Of course the "perk it" crowd will be all over it if is ever added to the game.

[JOACH1M]

The ki84 is every bit better then a spixteen why do u want a better one?

[Krusty]

-IC would be no good. Only 3 made. None saw action. The Japanese 30mm was terrible and probably wouldn't hit anything outside of 50 yards.

Numbers made for the 4x20mm -IB model range from 90 to 200, and to date I haven't seen any actual accounts that they saw any action, but you have a better shot requesting those.

Mind you, the several hundred extra pounds for the cannons and the ammunition would seriously hinder the super-manuverability of the -IA we have now.

[Wmaker]

Mind you, the several hundred extra pounds for the cannons and the ammunition would seriously hinder the super-manuverability of the -IA we have now.

Considering that 12.7mm Ho-103 MG weighs 50.7lbs and 20mm Ho-5 cannon weighs 81,6lbs, you aren't going to get "a several hundred extra pound" difference no matter how you count it.

Two 20mm cannons would weigh 61,8lbs more. I don't think there's a need to go into the ammo...

(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm Tables 2 & 3.)



The 30mm Ho-155-II that was meant for the -Ic had a muzzle velocity of 700m/s and rof of 500rpm. I was a very late development and remained very unreliable through the remainder of the war and saw very little use overall.

[Krusty]

Considering some places list 200 rpg on those 2 extra 20mms, some list 150 rpg (I don't know what the real value was), that's 300-400 extra rounds of ammo on top of that. Not something to discount.

Did you know in AH the Fw190 carries almost 250lbs of 20mm for the inboard guns alone (500 rds)? Whereas 1000 rounds of 7mm ammo weighs less than 70lbs.

I did some checking a while back and it really stuck with me how much weight these guns and ammo are. The cannons especially. They paid for their punch with a major increase in weight.

Did you know in AH the .303 round weighs 0.065 lbs, the .50cal weighs 0.31 lbs, the MG151/20 weighs 0.485 lbs, and the hispano round weighs 0.6 lbs?

Adding 300 of them (not having tested the Ki-84's ammo I'll use MG151/20) would add at LEAST 150 lbs if not 200 for ammo alone, not counting the extra 60 lbs for the guns.

[Karnak]

Did you know in AH the .303 round weighs 0.065 lbs, the .50cal weighs 0.31 lbs, the MG151/20 weighs 0.485 lbs, and the hispano round weighs 0.6 lbs?

Adding 300 of them (not having tested the Ki-84's ammo I'll use MG151/20) would add at LEAST 150 lbs if not 200 for ammo alone, not counting the extra 60 lbs for the guns.

What sort of math are you using?  300 rounds would be a bit less than 150lbs, less the 150-200lbs the 700 rounds of 12.7mm weigh.  The weight difference between a Ia and Ib would be less than 100 lbs.

[Slash27]

What sort of math are you using? 

[Krusty]

What sort of math are you using?  300 rounds would be a bit less than 150lbs, less the 150-200lbs the 700 rounds of 12.7mm weigh.  The weight difference between a Ia and Ib would be less than 100 lbs.

Basic arithmetic. As I said I wasn't sure how much the bullets weigh in AH or how many rounds there would be. I didn't think to subtract the 12mm round weight, I will admit.

You're forgetting that theoretically the guns alone add 60 lbs, on top of the ammo. You'd break 100 for sure, maybe break 200 if the ammo weighs as much as hispanos and/or there's 200 rpg.

I wasn't hiding the math there, you can see I wasn't just pulling numbers out of the air. You brought up a new point, so bravo there, but you don't have to take such a [seemingly] harsh or snide tone when I'm not doing anything underhanded or on the sly.

[Wmaker]

I didn't think to subtract the 12mm round weight, I will admit.

You're forgetting that theoretically the guns alone add 60 lbs, on top of the ammo. You'd break 100 for sure, maybe break 200 if the ammo weighs as much as hispanos and/or there's 200 rpg.

I wasn't hiding the math there, you can see I wasn't just pulling numbers out of the air. You brought up a new point, so bravo there, but you don't have to take such a [seemingly] harsh or snide tone when I'm not doing anything underhanded or on the sly.

According to M.Williams guns and ammo for the Ki-84-Ib weigh 291kg. Cannons are 35kg a piece so that makes 140kg and leaves 151kg for the ammo. Assuming the wing cannons carry the same ammo load in the Ib as they do in the Ia (300 rounds), the wing cannons ammo weighs 75kg max. According to Mike Williams the weight of the single round is between 0,213-0,250kg depending on the type of the round. So based on that the ammo of the cowl cannons also weigh roughly ~75kg and means that the cowl cannons most probably also have the ammo capacity of 300 rounds.

So the cowl cannons and their ammo weigh the same as the wing cannons and their ammo, 145kg. As already said, two Ho-103s weigh 46kg. And according to Mike Williams, 700 rounds of Ho-103 ammo weighs 57,4kg. So, 145kg minus 103,4kg is 41,6kg which in turn comes out at 91,7lbs.

So the difference in weight which comes from the armament is roughly 90lbs give or take. Quite far from several hundred pounds.

[Krusty]

Yes, as I mentioned I did not subtract the 12.7mm ammo weight, hence "couple hundred pounds" -- but also as a side thought: do we even know how much ammo is in those nose guns? It's not limited by space as in the wings. A number of japanese craft have mixed loadouts (N1K2 has different rounds per gun, Ki-100 upped the ammo in the nose quite a lot over the Ki-61, etc). It's not outside the realm of possibility/probability that they have more ammo than the wings.

Are there actually any specs/reports on the 4x20mm Ki-84-Ib? Or is it all vague, as some info on Japanese variants can be?

[Karnak]

I thought the Ki-61-II upped the ammo over what the Ki-61-I had, and the Ki-100 just carried over the Ki-61-II's ammo load.

[Krusty]

Ooh, very good distinction. I don't recall, but essentially the same plane regardless, meaning they had lots of room for more ammo.

[killnu]

where you come up with "only 3" produced?  The few references that I have seen, and some posted here, had them in double digits (not that those numbers are so much better).   I just dont see the number that saw action matters...werent many 3x20mm cannon la7s flying around (more than 20 or so, certainly more than 3) but they are all over in the MA.

[Ruah]

While difficult to judge 'squad strength' for the Japanese by this point in the war, it is safe to assume that if it could fly, it did.  If not fly, then dropped, crashed, rammed. . .whatevered into the enemy.

But really, there is no need for the Ic, the 84 we have now in AH2 is already deadly.