Author Topic: Savage Arms Rifle's?  (Read 2996 times)

Offline mtnman

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2010, 01:14:36 AM »

Savage, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post?  Do you really consider the 270 to be "barely adequate"?

I agree, most people can't shoot very accurately at all.  Most folks don't practice enough, and don't learn enough about the equipment to achieve decent accuracy.  So far though, nobody's made accuracy a legal requirement when it comes to hunting.

If you can't reliably put a bullet into a 4-6 inch target at a given range, you shouldn't be shooting a big game animal at that range.  There's no substitute for good old practice.  Shoot, shoot, shoot, and then shoot some more.

It's the shooter, not the rifle.  Where I'm from, it's a common thing to see a poor shooter trying to make up for that with a bigger, fancier, "more impressive" gun.  I've never seen it work.  In 30+ years, I've yet to see a dead NA big game animal killed with a big gun, that wouldn't have also been just as dead with a smaller gun.

Giving a bigger rifle to someone who can't shoot accurately won't lead to a cleaner, more "humane" kill.  And actually, for someone still early in the "learning" process, I'd recommend something even smaller.  Maybe a .243?  Power isn't a substitute for accuracy.  Too much power will probably lead to even less accuracy, in my experience as a shooting instructor.

The vast majority (almost all?) shots with a .270 that result in a suffering animal, would also result in a suffering animal had it been shot with a bigger gun.

A quick search of western big game regulations is leading me to believe that a .270 is completely adequate caliber-wise, and well above the recommended "minimum" energy-wise (I chose those states because elk and even bison are hunt-able.  We have black bears here in Wisconsin, but they aren't any tougher than a whitetail when it comes to a center fire rifle).  

Colorado has no minimum caliber, Idaho say no rimfires or rifles that weigh more than 16lbs.  Montana has no minimum for big game, Wyoming requires a .23 caliber bullet 2" or more in length.  But bullets shorter than 2" are ok if they're .35 cal and generate 500 ft-lbs at 100yds (for comparison the .243 100gr generates over 1600 ft-lb at 100yds, the .270 130gr has around 2265 ft-lb, and the 30-06 180gr has 2435 ft-lb at 100yds, the 7mm Rem 150 has 2670).  Compared to the 500 ft-lb minimum at 100yds, the .270 still has 1285 ft-lb at 400 yds...  

Where do we draw a line for "barely adequate"?  2.5 times the energy at 4 times the range would seem to be a bit more than "barely adequate".

Can we even argue "barely adequate" cartridges in one sentence, and then speak in favor of primitive weapons?

Here in Wisconsin, "It is illegal to hunt deer with any air rifle, rimfire rifle, or any center-fire rifle less than .22 caliber".

If target shooting is the OP's goal, I'd say the .270 is a massive overkill myself.  Maybe drop down to a .17, or .223, or .22-250.

MtnMan

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Offline Excel1

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2010, 04:20:20 AM »
You must be a really bad shot? 243 is fine out to 400-500 yards - let alone a 270... 2 weekends ago I was out with a guy who took down two deer with one shot from a .243 at 360 yards (both through the neck). And another guy bowled one at 400 yards with his 243, we were all using 80gr-100gr (my longest shot was 280 yards, through the heart, but I wasn't presented with any longer range opportunities).

We had other guys in the area using 7mm's (280, 7mm Practical, and 7mm SUM) out as far as 760 yards.

hey, long time no hear from. you are really in to it now by the sounds of it. i use to wack everything that moved that didn't go moo. but not now. i hate killing animals unless i have too. i just keep my hardware for a rainy day mostly

Offline Excel1

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2010, 04:49:15 AM »
if you can hit a rabbit with an ar15 at 150 yards hititting a deer at 400 yards with decent bolt gun is a piece of piss. it's not rocket science. hunters do it every day of the week. if the hunters in your're neck of the woods can't hit toejam past 200 yards then they are just lousy shots. 

Offline Spikes

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 06:01:49 AM »

The 270 is a fine cartridge, I own a nice Winchester Model 70 chambered in 270. It is fine for deer sized game at 300 yards, provided you are a really good shot. It just does not have the extra margin in power that the 308 and 30-06 have.

My dad just got a nice doe at about 380 or 390 yards last weekend with a .270.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2010, 09:11:08 AM »
Savage makes some nice bolt action rifles, and several are very accurate.

If you are hunting, 30-06 or 308 are both better at 300 yards.

The 270 is a fine cartridge, I own a nice Winchester Model 70 chambered in 270. It is fine for deer sized game at 300 yards, provided you are a really good shot. It just does not have the extra margin in power that the 308 and 30-06 have.



Oops, forgot to point out earlier that the .270 surpasses the .308 in "power".  As the range increases, the .270 pulls even further ahead.

That's not meant as a sleight on the .308, it's a fine cartridge.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:35:29 AM by mtnman »
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Offline Flench

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2010, 09:25:51 AM »
Oops, forgot to point out earlier that the .270 surpasses the .308 in "power".  As the range increases, the .270 pulls even further ahead.

HAHAHAHA , I have seen this many time;s with a buck running across a field  at 300 yard's . The guy's was shooting a 308 and I was using my BAR 270 and I could see there round's hitting way short in my scope . Unreal how bad of shot's some people are . Reminds me of me in AH , lol . I was like Now you know you cant hit that dear that far , lol catch the dog's , lol . Same thing with the guy's shooting the 30-30 .
One guy brought a 7 mag to the hunt one time and I kind of like it but never had any experience with it .
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:53:21 AM by Flench »
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Offline 4deck

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2010, 09:29:43 AM »
I wanted to get a 30-06, but rifle ammunition is kinda pricey lol.


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Get into reloading. Its actually very safe if you follow the recipe's I use a hornady book, and a winchester cook book. I cross reference them both. The equipment all together will run your around 100 bucks, but you can save your casings and use them around 5-6 times. Probbale more, but I dont want to take any chances. You'll save so much money doing that, that you can shoot anytime you want.
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Offline Flench

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2010, 09:41:42 AM »
My dad just got a nice doe at about 380 or 390 yards last weekend with a .270.
Very nice  !
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Offline Flench

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2010, 09:48:33 AM »
Get into reloading. Its actually very safe if you follow the recipe's I use a hornady book, and a winchester cook book. I cross reference them both. The equipment all together will run your around 100 bucks, but you can save your casings and use them around 5-6 times. Probbale more, but I dont want to take any chances. You'll save so much money doing that, that you can shoot anytime you want.
Always wanted to reload my rifle ammo but was to hvy into skeet shooting at the time so all my reloading (wingmaster) stuff is for a 12 gauge .
Oh , and if I was just going to go target shooting get a 22 or a HR17 like mtnman said .

(someone pm me and tell me how to put two quote's in one post )
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 09:58:15 AM by Flench »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2010, 10:01:24 AM »
Always wanted to reload my rifle ammo but was to hvy into skeet shooting at the time so all my reloading (wingmaster) stuff is for a 12 gauge .

(someone pm me and tell me how to put to quote's in one post )

To put multiple quotes in one post (not gonna PM it, someone else is wondering the same thing)-

-Click "quote" on one of the quotes you want to respond to, and proceed as per normal.  
-Then, open a second session of the AH Forums in a separate tab on your browser (right click on the Forums link on the AH Home page, and select "Open Link in new tab" or the equivalent), and find the second quote you want to make.  
-Click quote on that one too.  You'll now have two separate "response" tabs open.  
-Cut/Paste the quote from one response into the other one, and close the now "empty" one...

To break a long quote into multiple small ones in order to answer several points separately, Just Copy/Paste the *[ quote author = Flench link.... ]* and *[ / quote ]* "pieces" and insert them into the original quote where desired.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 10:46:18 AM by mtnman »
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Offline Flench

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2010, 10:03:32 AM »
Thanks mtnman  :aok
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2010, 10:51:14 AM »
Properly loaded, with 130 grain bullets, the 308 equals the 270 in velocity, and the 308 has 0.030" larger diameter bullets. The edge in killing power goes to the 308. The same applies to 150 grain bullets. And there isn't a 168 grain bullet for the 270. In fact the 160 grain 270 bullets are designed for the short magnum version, and a regular 270 will not send them down range fast enough for them to work properly. The 168 grain Sierra HPBTSP is recognized the world over as the most reliable and efficient projectile in the mid range cartridge class. It was designed for the 308. Further, the 308, for whatever reasons, apparently has the most stable and reliable external ballistics of any round in its class, which is why it has been adopted as both a target and sniper rifle by so many organizations and agencies. Most of those organizations and agencies can get anything they want, but they shoot 308.

I say that about a 308, and currently, I don't even own one, so I'm not "defending" my favorite rifle or cartridge. I may not buy another one, at least in a bolt action hunting rifle, because I already own Model 70 rifles chambered in 270, 30-06, and two in 300 Winchester Magnum. So I have three 30 caliber bolt action rifles (plus a 30-30) and the 270 Winchester. The 308 is within less than 10% of a 30-06, and the 270 is merely a necked down 30-06 with slightly less case volume (in most commercial cartridge cases). And I'm not saying the 270 is not an excellent cartridge, if I didn't think it was, I wouldn't own the rifle, a couple hundred rounds of ammunition, and everything required to reload it. I love my 270.

Any good centerfire rifle is adequate for deer, provided we're dealing with a skilled shooter. My old 220 Swift would kill deer like they were struck by lightning, if the shot was perfect.

In most places, there is not a shooting range, private or public, longer than 100 yards, within 50 miles of the average person's home. Therefore, the average shooter does not have a place to adequately practice shots of 200 yards or longer. The nearest available range to me is Oak Ridge, that's well over 100 miles, and isn't open on a regular basis, although it is a 1000 yard range. Most people do not have access to private lands with that sort of open range to practice on, either.

The 270 is more than adequate for deer and other game of that size or a bit larger, for exactly the range the person holding the rifle is up to the task.

I disagree with using the 270 on truly big game (deer are at best light skinned medium game with relatively small bones) because there are few, if any, bullets designed to break big bones and penetrate reliably. The power is there, the bullets are not.

Someone mentioned 100 grain bullets working better on deer than 140 grain bullets. They're using the wrong 140 grain bullet, and not getting expansion. It's not that the 140 is so fast, in fact, often the 100 is much faster, unless it is loaded down. It's that the 140 grain bullet is not expanding. Therein lies another problem with some smaller diameter bullets. If they don't hit bone in a light skinned animal, they often do not expand at all. This is especially true with some factory ammunition. At least if you start with a larger diameter bullet, at the same velocity, you get a larger hole, and a larger tissue disruption area. A good example of that is the difference between the bullets I use to hunt deer with a handgun, compared to the bullets I use to hunt boar or bear. For deer I use a 180 grain jacketed hollow cavity bullet at nearly 1800 fps muzzle velocity, because it expands rapidly and to over 50% greater diameter, and it does not need to hit any bone to do it. For bear and boar I use a 300 grain flat point solid lead bullet at around 1300 fps muzzle velocity. That bullet needs to penetrate deep, smashing bone if necessary, and the large flat nose disrupts tissue, because a bullet that expands easily on thick skin, dense tissue, or heavy bone, will not reliably penetrate deeply enough.

I'm not even suggesting "monster rifles" nor "magnum fever". I've never been a fan of that, especially for the vast majority of hunters, because they are not dedicated shooters. In fact, while I do own and shoot magnum rifles, I hesitate to suggest most people buy one. I suggest the 308 specifically because it has plenty of power, excellent accuracy, and well developed external ballistics tables, not to mention relatively light recoil and relatively low muzzle blast.

I'm not going to waste another second arguing about how well people shoot. I've hunted in a couple dozen states, and the same percentage of people who can't shoot well enough for the ranges they try to hunt at exist in every single one of them. It's a lot larger percentage than anyone wants to admit. Anyone who says it isn't is only fooling themselves. There is just as high a percentage of hunters over extending their skills in Wyoming, Colorado, or Idaho as there are here in Tennessee. The Bravo Sierra of "hunters here can shoot, the hunters around you suck" is just more ego stroking B.S., don't waste your time trying to sell that to me, I know better. I've been hunting and shooting for close to 40 years, reloading for nearly as long, and I was a wildlife tech for several years.

As far as saying "the 270 is barely adequate", that's not really what I said. And the average center fire rifle hunter is a far different hunter than those who hunt with "primitive weapons", although these days "primitive weapons" are far from being even remotely "primitive", and some of the same people who aren't ethical enough to be well practiced are now often found wandering about during archery and black powder seasons.
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Offline Flench

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2010, 12:10:44 PM »
Captain Virgil Hilts , I will be stand hunting this year so what would you recommend for ammo for my 270 .My  longest shot would be 250 yard's at most from my deer stand . Been using the 100 grain for year's but that was for running deer and it worked fine for that . Got to go to town in the morning and get a few boxes and was just wondering ..The 140 grain ? and in a core lock or silver tip ?
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2010, 12:44:46 PM »
I have a great book written by a member of a 1920s expedition to the amazon basin in which the author is always mentioning his beloved Savage 250. he says something along the lines of it being the flattest shooting rifle out there with enough punch to knock down anything on the continent. he also says its so light and well balanced that you can fire one-handed at bandits while holding a microscope in the other  :lol

cant remember the title or author atm but its a hilarious book - it must be the worst planned expedition ever, will dig it out later :aok
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Offline Tupac

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Re: Savage Arms Rifle's?
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2010, 01:03:08 PM »
I use a sporterized .303 enfield for boar hunting, picked up the gun (nice finish, broken stock) for $60 at a gun show.

Decent accuracy, hard hitting round and a 10 round box.

And if you just want something for plinking, get a mosin nagant, you can get a 440 round tin for $90, and it's good ammo as long as you clean the gun afterwards.
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