Author Topic: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"  (Read 4421 times)

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2010, 10:26:11 PM »
tbh all this is going to do is make osama be more creative.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2010, 11:05:26 PM »
Remember, this is from the agency that arrested a pilot frustrated at having to take off his shoes who pointed out that if he wanted to destroy the aircraft he wouldn't need a bomb.

Funny Taiwanese take on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBL3ux1o0tM&feature=player_embedded
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2010, 08:43:48 AM »
Floatsom, what kind of work do you do?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline dunnrite

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2010, 08:45:03 AM »

Amazing you could actually recruit that much suck into one squad.
Your Proctologist called, they found your head.

Offline Blooz

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2010, 08:55:37 AM »
Not surprisingly, after studying U.S. Code Title 49 and the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (Public Law 107-71) I can't find where the TSA gets it's authority to search passengers bodies in the manner they are doing.

They do have authority to search you physically if you cause the scanners (metal, body, baggage x-ray, dogs) to alarm or if you refuse to be checked by the machine scanners (this is the probable cause thing that law enforcement officers have to abide by). They are very explicit about scanning checked luggage and carry on luggage by both scanners, dogs and physical checks but not people, unless of course, you've given them a reason to suspect you. Which is perfectly legal.

Now, if you look at U. S. Code 18 under Sexual Abuse, you'll see how close the TSA is coming to commiting a crime at airport security checkpoints.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:57:10 AM by Blooz »
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2010, 09:31:36 AM »
Right.  One could walk onto a domestic airliner with a couple of pounds of nitrocellulose explosive and a detonator today*** and not even be questioned about it, nor would ANY of the current electromechanical technologies employed by the TSA detect it. Psychological and ethnic profiling plus detailed questioning by a trained professional would easily catch someone attempting such, but NO NO, picking on minorities and foreigners is MUCH more devastating to them (sarcasm intended) than having some stranger gawk at my wifes naked body in a scanner or letting her be groped by some lecher of a TSA guard who flunked the psych exam required to work at McDonalds is to her. Not to mention the fact that the GAO's independent analysis shows that the radiation dose absorbed during a routine scan series is, at a minimum, 10X what the TSA and the manufacturer claims it is. If I'm in another country, well then I have to submit to whatever they see fit there, BUT NOT HERE. To turn your previous question to me on its ear,  which is more important, my and my family's personal right to privacy, right to be secure in our selves and possessions against unreasonable search an seizure, and our psychological peace of mind or that of some non-U.S. citizen who has no such rights under our constitution?  I say MINE.  
Non-metallic weapons+++ and "old-school" conventional explosives are totally undetectable by the machinery you espouse. A nut-job out to kill people on a plane is 99.99% detectable by psych profiling.
Now, let's talk bioweapons...want to kill a plane full of people without resorting to explosives?  I can name you at least 6 "bugs" that will do the trick.  Want to inoculate a plane-load of pax and then let them spread a disease to, say 1/4 million people before the CDC even realizes they have an epidemic on their hands? That can be accomplished also.  All we need is a seed stock and common labware from a high school or undergraduate microbiology lab.  The seed stock for MANY human pathogens is available commercially TO ANYBODY from the ATCC (http://www.atcc.org) for a nominal processing fee.  We can incorporate genomic (not plasmidic) multiple antibiotic resistance into bacteria in just a week or so. MRSA  can be obtained from any hospital.  Viruses are a bit trickier, but the CDC's repository in Atlanta is a smorgasbord of opportunity and their security is worse than a 7-11 at 3 am if you know what you need and who on the campus has routine access to it.  Biologicals are totally  undetectable to the screening systems. (but much more effective sprayed onto the salad bar at a rest stop restuarant)
Chemical weapons?  Same deal.  Carry on the precursor macromolecules and catalysts / enzymes, then "build" it in the lav.  Doesn't take much to get the job done.  Three pax with less than 3oz each collaborating, and again, not detectable at security.
How about good ol' physical destruction?  Anyone with an AMM can figure out how to disable an airliner's systems from the pax cabin.  It isn't rocket science.  Need privacy or at least a short head start?   Gain access to the crawl spaces through the access panels in the rear lav floor and ceiling in most Boeing equipment.  Can't stop that with a screening machine either.
The bad guys haven't TRIED to thwart our security measures, yet.  If they had tried, there would be a LOT more dead airplanes and people.  The only sociopaths to try it recently, those who made the headlines, were too stupid to pound sand in a desert and they were not terrorists (except by George "Alfred P. Newman" Bush's definition, in which anything that moves and "isn't with us" is a terrorist).  Not all mass murderers are terrorists. A smart terrorist would go though TSA security like a hot knife through butter.  But, they don't need to.  One, its easier to go around it by becoming an airport or airline employee.  Two, they've got us chasing our own shadows already, and that was the intent all along.  Taking credit for the subsequent idiots' attempts merely serves their purpose of keeping us at it.
Mark my words.  The next big terrorist event will have nothing to do with aviation other than their mode of travel to the U.S. in the first place.
***How?  By simply rinsing  80:20 cotton-polyester blend clothing fabric briefly in a 2:1 mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, then rinsing it in water and drying it. Turns the cotton into a wearable explosive that would not set off ANY electronic sniffer. The detonator?  The striker wheel from a simple butane lighter or any other spark source.  BTW -- nitrocellulose = guncotton, the original smokeless gunpowder. Pack it into a confined space once you're on the plane and you've got a bomb, approx 6X more powerful than traditional gunpowder.  Need it in a different yet just as undetectable form?  Use 100% pure cotton instead. While wet, compress the processed cotton in a jar of petroleum ether.  Turns it into a plastic that can be machined and moulded into just about any shape - fake CDs, computer cases, cell phone protectors, shoe liners, you name it. (Goes by the common name collodion, and used to be the the base material in film stock.  Nowadays its also commercially available in both solid and liquid form - used by bioresearch labs for mixing custom DNA and protein analysis gels).  Collodion is so flammable that once ignited, it will even burn under water - it provides its own oxidant during decomposition.  In fact, pouring water onto a "dry" collodion fire will convert the fire into an explosion.  In large masses collodion is also a contact explosive, just bang it together and it goes BOOM.
+++ I flew 1/2 way around the world -- New Zealand to the US and then all the way across the US -- with a 8 inch ceramic-bladed Benchmade hunting knife in my carry-on two years ago.  Forgot I had put it in the shoulder strap pocket of my knapsack when we were hunting Tahr in the Southern Alps; didn't remember it until I was unpacking at home.  It went through x-ray screening no less than 4 times and was never flagged by the screeners.  So much for technology solving the problem.
RE quote: "Our way of life has survived.".
No, it has not.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:33:20 AM by Wolfala »


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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2010, 10:03:51 AM »
Right.  One could walk onto a domestic airliner with a couple of pounds of nitrocellulose explosive and a detonator today*** and not even be questioned about it, nor would ANY of the current electromechanical technologies employed by the TSA detect it. Psychological and ethnic profiling plus detailed questioning by a trained professional would easily catch someone attempting such, but NO NO, picking on minorities and foreigners is MUCH more devastating to them (sarcasm intended) than having some stranger gawk at my wifes naked body in a scanner or letting her be groped by some lecher of a TSA guard who flunked the psych exam required to work at McDonalds is to her. Not to mention the fact that the GAO's independent analysis shows that the radiation dose absorbed during a routine scan series is, at a minimum, 10X what the TSA and the manufacturer claims it is. If I'm in another country, well then I have to submit to whatever they see fit there, BUT NOT HERE. To turn your previous question to me on its ear,  which is more important, my and my family's personal right to privacy, right to be secure in our selves and possessions against unreasonable search an seizure, and our psychological peace of mind or that of some non-U.S. citizen who has no such rights under our constitution?  I say MINE.  
Non-metallic weapons+++ and "old-school" conventional explosives are totally undetectable by the machinery you espouse. A nut-job out to kill people on a plane is 99.99% detectable by psych profiling.
Now, let's talk bioweapons...want to kill a plane full of people without resorting to explosives?  I can name you at least 6 "bugs" that will do the trick.  Want to inoculate a plane-load of pax and then let them spread a disease to, say 1/4 million people before the CDC even realizes they have an epidemic on their hands? That can be accomplished also.  All we need is a seed stock and common labware from a high school or undergraduate microbiology lab.  The seed stock for MANY human pathogens is available commercially TO ANYBODY from the ATCC (http://www.atcc.org) for a nominal processing fee.  We can incorporate genomic (not plasmidic) multiple antibiotic resistance into bacteria in just a week or so. MRSA  can be obtained from any hospital.  Viruses are a bit trickier, but the CDC's repository in Atlanta is a smorgasbord of opportunity and their security is worse than a 7-11 at 3 am if you know what you need and who on the campus has routine access to it.  Biologicals are totally  undetectable to the screening systems. (but much more effective sprayed onto the salad bar at a rest stop restuarant)
Chemical weapons?  Same deal.  Carry on the precursor macromolecules and catalysts / enzymes, then "build" it in the lav.  Doesn't take much to get the job done.  Three pax with less than 3oz each collaborating, and again, not detectable at security.
How about good ol' physical destruction?  Anyone with an AMM can figure out how to disable an airliner's systems from the pax cabin.  It isn't rocket science.  Need privacy or at least a short head start?   Gain access to the crawl spaces through the access panels in the rear lav floor and ceiling in most Boeing equipment.  Can't stop that with a screening machine either.
The bad guys haven't TRIED to thwart our security measures, yet.  If they had tried, there would be a LOT more dead airplanes and people.  The only sociopaths to try it recently, those who made the headlines, were too stupid to pound sand in a desert and they were not terrorists (except by George "Alfred P. Newman" Bush's definition, in which anything that moves and "isn't with us" is a terrorist).  Not all mass murderers are terrorists. A smart terrorist would go though TSA security like a hot knife through butter.  But, they don't need to.  One, its easier to go around it by becoming an airport or airline employee.  Two, they've got us chasing our own shadows already, and that was the intent all along.  Taking credit for the subsequent idiots' attempts merely serves their purpose of keeping us at it.
Mark my words.  The next big terrorist event will have nothing to do with aviation other than their mode of travel to the U.S. in the first place.
***How?  By simply rinsing  80:20 cotton-polyester blend clothing fabric briefly in a 2:1 mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, then rinsing it in water and drying it. Turns the cotton into a wearable explosive that would not set off ANY electronic sniffer. The detonator?  The striker wheel from a simple butane lighter or any other spark source.  BTW -- nitrocellulose = guncotton, the original smokeless gunpowder. Pack it into a confined space once you're on the plane and you've got a bomb, approx 6X more powerful than traditional gunpowder.  Need it in a different yet just as undetectable form?  Use 100% pure cotton instead. While wet, compress the processed cotton in a jar of petroleum ether.  Turns it into a plastic that can be machined and moulded into just about any shape - fake CDs, computer cases, cell phone protectors, shoe liners, you name it. (Goes by the common name collodion, and used to be the the base material in film stock.  Nowadays its also commercially available in both solid and liquid form - used by bioresearch labs for mixing custom DNA and protein analysis gels).  Collodion is so flammable that once ignited, it will even burn under water - it provides its own oxidant during decomposition.  In fact, pouring water onto a "dry" collodion fire will convert the fire into an explosion.  In large masses collodion is also a contact explosive, just bang it together and it goes BOOM.
+++ I flew 1/2 way around the world -- New Zealand to the US and then all the way across the US -- with a 8 inch ceramic-bladed Benchmade hunting knife in my carry-on two years ago.  Forgot I had put it in the shoulder strap pocket of my knapsack when we were hunting Tahr in the Southern Alps; didn't remember it until I was unpacking at home.  It went through x-ray screening no less than 4 times and was never flagged by the screeners.  So much for technology solving the problem.
RE quote: "Our way of life has survived.".
No, it has not.


Right on target.  :aok
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »
Floatsom, what kind of work do you do?

For the past 10 years i have oporated a tow truck. no i dont give pat downs to people before i let them in my truck, although sometimes i would really like to!!!  :x


Not surprisingly, after studying U.S. Code Title 49 and the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (Public Law 107-71) I can't find where the TSA gets it's authority to search passengers bodies in the manner they are doing.

They do have authority to search you physically if you cause the scanners (metal, body, baggage x-ray, dogs) to alarm or if you refuse to be checked by the machine scanners (this is the probable cause thing that law enforcement officers have to abide by). They are very explicit about scanning checked luggage and carry on luggage by both scanners, dogs and physical checks but not people, unless of course, you've given them a reason to suspect you. Which is perfectly legal.

Now, if you look at U. S. Code 18 under Sexual Abuse, you'll see how close the TSA is coming to commiting a crime at airport security checkpoints.


Blooz unforunately the federal code does not give an exact specific on the how to's of performing the physical body searches, but this is the foundation of their authority to perform the searches. the authority to do as the deam reasonable is drawn from the fact that the guideline does not specifically limit what they are allowed to do. quite to the contrary the guideline actually leaves it at the discretion of the agents performing the security checks.


TITLE 49 > SUBTITLE VII > PART A > subpart iii > CHAPTER 449 > SUBCHAPTER I >
§ 44903. Air transportation security
(b) Protection Against Violence and Piracy.— The Under Secretary shall prescribe regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy. When prescribing a regulation under this subsection, the Under Secretary shall—
(1) consult with the Secretary of Transportation, the Attorney General, the heads of other departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government, and State and local authorities;
(2) consider whether a proposed regulation is consistent with—
(A) protecting passengers; and
(B) the public interest in promoting air transportation and intrastate air transportation;

the TSA gets its authority by the failure of the law makers to specifically limit them in what they are allowed to do. as a matter of fact the only limiting reference i could find was;

(3) to the maximum extent practicable, require a uniform procedure for searching and detaining passengers and property to ensure—
(A) their safety; and
(B) courteous and efficient treatment by an air carrier, an agent or employee of an air carrier, and Government, State, and local law enforcement personnel carrying out this section; and

but that falls short in preventing the body search, it becomes an opinional issue of what is courteous in the light of what is practicable to ensure the safety of others.

it doesnt say they can, but it does say the must strive to ensure the safety of all, so within the grey area they derive their authority.


so wolf buy your description i guess we should do absolutely nothing at all and we can all be either dead or growing beards next year right?

funny thing about people like you that say "well you can just do this or that or the other thing to defeat the security so we shouldnt have any" is that yours will be the first name on the law suite filled against whatever agency that you feel didnt secure your loved ones or your possession when/if they are harmed. especially if the manner in which they were harmed may have been preventable/avoidable with a little bit of effort from some type of security.

i have a silly question, when your children were little, say 3 or 4 years old, did you allow then to play in front of the stove when you were cooking? no? well why not? because you were protecting them from getting injured? well they could have just fallen down a flight of stairs, of stuck a fork in an eletrical outlet or drank the drano or eaten the rat poinson in the traps or ect instead of being burned buy the stove. but that didnt change the fact that you kept them from the stove and from all other forms of harm that you could, right?

safety and security is a progressive and ever changing animal. once you have protected them from the harms of one possible hazzard they find something new to do that puts them at risk, children are very creative when it comes to doing things that will get them hurt. does this mean you just say to hell with it and do nothing?

that is your logic, we cant win them all and there are so many things they could do so why even try to prevent what maybe we possibly can?

you prove your therory to be just tough guy talking trash if you have any children, or anything/one else for that matter, that you do whatever you can to protect.
FLOTSOM

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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2010, 11:49:11 AM »
Right.  One could walk onto a domestic airliner with a couple of pounds of nitrocellulose explosive and a detonator today*** and not even be questioned about it, nor would ANY of the current electromechanical technologies employed by the TSA detect it. Psychological and ethnic profiling plus detailed questioning by a trained professional would easily catch someone attempting such, but NO NO, picking on minorities and foreigners is MUCH more devastating to them (sarcasm intended) than having some stranger gawk at my wifes naked body in a scanner or letting her be groped by some lecher of a TSA guard who flunked the psych exam required to work at McDonalds is to her. Not to mention the fact that the GAO's independent analysis shows that the radiation dose absorbed during a routine scan series is, at a minimum, 10X what the TSA and the manufacturer claims it is. If I'm in another country, well then I have to submit to whatever they see fit there, BUT NOT HERE. To turn your previous question to me on its ear,  which is more important, my and my family's personal right to privacy, right to be secure in our selves and possessions against unreasonable search an seizure, and our psychological peace of mind or that of some non-U.S. citizen who has no such rights under our constitution?  I say MINE.  
Non-metallic weapons+++ and "old-school" conventional explosives are totally undetectable by the machinery you espouse. A nut-job out to kill people on a plane is 99.99% detectable by psych profiling.
Now, let's talk bioweapons...want to kill a plane full of people without resorting to explosives?  I can name you at least 6 "bugs" that will do the trick.  Want to inoculate a plane-load of pax and then let them spread a disease to, say 1/4 million people before the CDC even realizes they have an epidemic on their hands? That can be accomplished also.  All we need is a seed stock and common labware from a high school or undergraduate microbiology lab.  The seed stock for MANY human pathogens is available commercially TO ANYBODY from the ATCC (http://www.atcc.org) for a nominal processing fee.  We can incorporate genomic (not plasmidic) multiple antibiotic resistance into bacteria in just a week or so. MRSA  can be obtained from any hospital.  Viruses are a bit trickier, but the CDC's repository in Atlanta is a smorgasbord of opportunity and their security is worse than a 7-11 at 3 am if you know what you need and who on the campus has routine access to it.  Biologicals are totally  undetectable to the screening systems. (but much more effective sprayed onto the salad bar at a rest stop restuarant)
Chemical weapons?  Same deal.  Carry on the precursor macromolecules and catalysts / enzymes, then "build" it in the lav.  Doesn't take much to get the job done.  Three pax with less than 3oz each collaborating, and again, not detectable at security.
How about good ol' physical destruction?  Anyone with an AMM can figure out how to disable an airliner's systems from the pax cabin.  It isn't rocket science.  Need privacy or at least a short head start?   Gain access to the crawl spaces through the access panels in the rear lav floor and ceiling in most Boeing equipment.  Can't stop that with a screening machine either.
The bad guys haven't TRIED to thwart our security measures, yet.  If they had tried, there would be a LOT more dead airplanes and people.  The only sociopaths to try it recently, those who made the headlines, were too stupid to pound sand in a desert and they were not terrorists (except by George "Alfred P. Newman" Bush's definition, in which anything that moves and "isn't with us" is a terrorist).  Not all mass murderers are terrorists. A smart terrorist would go though TSA security like a hot knife through butter.  But, they don't need to.  One, its easier to go around it by becoming an airport or airline employee.  Two, they've got us chasing our own shadows already, and that was the intent all along.  Taking credit for the subsequent idiots' attempts merely serves their purpose of keeping us at it.
Mark my words.  The next big terrorist event will have nothing to do with aviation other than their mode of travel to the U.S. in the first place.
***How?  By simply rinsing  80:20 cotton-polyester blend clothing fabric briefly in a 2:1 mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, then rinsing it in water and drying it. Turns the cotton into a wearable explosive that would not set off ANY electronic sniffer. The detonator?  The striker wheel from a simple butane lighter or any other spark source.  BTW -- nitrocellulose = guncotton, the original smokeless gunpowder. Pack it into a confined space once you're on the plane and you've got a bomb, approx 6X more powerful than traditional gunpowder.  Need it in a different yet just as undetectable form?  Use 100% pure cotton instead. While wet, compress the processed cotton in a jar of petroleum ether.  Turns it into a plastic that can be machined and moulded into just about any shape - fake CDs, computer cases, cell phone protectors, shoe liners, you name it. (Goes by the common name collodion, and used to be the the base material in film stock.  Nowadays its also commercially available in both solid and liquid form - used by bioresearch labs for mixing custom DNA and protein analysis gels).  Collodion is so flammable that once ignited, it will even burn under water - it provides its own oxidant during decomposition.  In fact, pouring water onto a "dry" collodion fire will convert the fire into an explosion.  In large masses collodion is also a contact explosive, just bang it together and it goes BOOM.
+++ I flew 1/2 way around the world -- New Zealand to the US and then all the way across the US -- with a 8 inch ceramic-bladed Benchmade hunting knife in my carry-on two years ago.  Forgot I had put it in the shoulder strap pocket of my knapsack when we were hunting Tahr in the Southern Alps; didn't remember it until I was unpacking at home.  It went through x-ray screening no less than 4 times and was never flagged by the screeners.  So much for technology solving the problem.
RE quote: "Our way of life has survived.".
No, it has not.


Wolf, you understand.  You went into more detail than I would have liked, as a scientist, but you understand.

I stand by my original statement.  The war on terror is over and we have objectively lost.



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Offline dedalos

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2010, 11:53:27 AM »
. . . .

I agree with you, but I would worry more about a US citizen than a foreigner.  I guess what I am saying is that someone boarding a plane in the US to do something bad is most likely here legally either as a citizen or green card or some kind of a long term visa, and not with a tourist visa or here eligibly.  Makes you wonder how they got in in the first place ehh?  Unless by foreigner you mean not white with blond hair.

For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2010, 12:03:12 PM »
now there coming out with evidence there using cavity bombs and not one of the scanners are able to detect them sense it's internal, whats next to board a plane grab your ankle's and cough, this all reminds me of a song line by the Kinks...  paranoia, they destroy ya
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Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2010, 12:04:30 PM »
Flot isnt your wife a lawyer? ( thought i remember you saying that a few times) apologize if i'm wrong
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Offline Blooz

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2010, 12:08:39 PM »
[quote author=FLOTSOM link=topic=300278.msg3849192#msg3849192 date=safety and security is a progressive and ever changing animal. once you have protected them from the harms of one possible hazzard they find something new to do that puts them at risk, children are very creative when it comes to doing things that will get them hurt. does this mean you just say to hell with it and do nothing?

[/quote]



Ok. So where does it stop? Let's say, that the TSA really does have the authority to search the way they do. When groping you, your wife and kids, do they stop at the first knuckle while reaching up into your/their butt? Do they stop at the wrist? Elbow? Tell me? Where do you draw the line? Why do you think the fourth amendment exists? Are you one of those that years ago burned their draft cards and shouted "Hell no! We won't go!" but now advocate that a govenment agent can fondle you, your wife and kids?

I don't advocate we do nothing. We all know that airline security is already very tight. Plus, I don't see how you think I'm a "tough guy talking trash" while just trying to explain to you how our liberty is being stripped away in the guise of security. Please wake up!
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2010, 12:32:22 PM »
Flot isnt your wife a lawyer? ( thought i remember you saying that a few times) apologize if i'm wrong

no Zoom, smart enough to never get married. i had a very colorful youth so i spent alot of time involved in the legal system, go figure huh, i learned to read and interpret statutes based on necessity. i mostly taught myself, buy reading writting and many hours of conversations with some very smart but socially stupid people.

[quote author=FLOTSOM link=topic=300278.msg3849192#msg3849192 date=safety and security is a progressive and ever changing animal. once you have protected them from the harms of one possible hazzard they find something new to do that puts them at risk, children are very creative when it comes to doing things that will get them hurt. does this mean you just say to hell with it and do nothing?





Ok. So where does it stop? Let's say, that the TSA really does have the authority to search the way they do. When groping you, your wife and kids, do they stop at the first knuckle while reaching up into your/their butt? Do they stop at the wrist? Elbow? Tell me? Where do you draw the line? Why do you think the fourth amendment exists? Are you one of those that years ago burned their draft cards and shouted "Hell no! We won't go!" but now advocate that a govenment agent can fondle you, your wife and kids?

I don't advocate we do nothing. We all know that airline security is already very tight. Plus, I don't see how you think I'm a "tough guy talking trash" while just trying to explain to you how our liberty is being stripped away in the guise of security. Please wake up!

Blooz, the part of my response you are responding to was directed toward wolf and his wall of text on how to create a weapon you can smuggle past current sercurity. not at what you had stated.

i did not burn my draft card, i was too young for the draft. i wouldnt have burned it if i wasnt. personally i believe everyone should be made to perform some military service, kinda like they do in isreal.

i dont know where to draw the line, i never said i did. its got to be a balance between safety and privacy, but unfortunately when you are dealing with a person that will see how far you are willing to go for security and will then go further it becomes an almost impossible balance to find.

if you can find a reasonable balance then i will be first to sign your petition.

i dont have the answers to defeating the threats that exist while not making your family feel uncomfortable. if i had an answer i would share. but i can tell you all this without doubt, i am happy to sit here and argue with you all over this because we are here to do so. i would absolutely resent and be angered by losing any one of you or your opinions to an act of violence that could have been prevented. life is life, accidents and old age and the breaking down of the body happens, these things i can understand and will live with. but not an act of violence that may have been stoppable.
FLOTSOM

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!
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Offline Westy

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Re: Sir, We need to do a body scan..."No Thank You"
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2010, 12:45:08 PM »
"tbh all this is going to do is make osama be more creative."

Right. Cause Obama creatively made the TSA, wrapped it up under Homeland
Security and enabled it withall the sins that go along with the Patriot Acts and
then he had good ole around Chertoff to push having these scanners put in right
after the "underwear" bomber attempted to murder a few hundred people on a
plane to Detroit!

Yuh know. I'm not sure he could get any more creative and top that..