Author Topic: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!  (Read 24510 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #255 on: November 24, 2010, 02:12:20 PM »
Aces High has grown from a homogenious association of like minded enthusists to a very complex community of diversely motivated entertainment seekers. The links I'm including covers very well the foundation of our current personal motivational dillema and social conflicts.

This AINT Kansas anymore guys and none of your complaints, whines, hurt feelings and motivations related to this concept called an MMO are unique from all the MMOG blogs where the guys dress up in magical tights and chase long eared girls, or fly around in the enterpoop and phaze each other in the kester.

If anything we are behind the curve on how long we stayed a purists WW2 and air combat enthusiests refuge. We have been invaded by MMO gaming immigrants with totaly different motivations and values than our traditional Knights of the Sky Honor and Glory code.   

This is an excellent analysis of a 3000 player survey result and their motivations. In the final analysis we need all of us to make this game an interesting place.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001298.php?page=1
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001304.php?page=1



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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #256 on: November 24, 2010, 02:21:50 PM »
No.  This is not the issue.  I don't understand why a smart guy like yourself can't wrap his head around it.  It's not about one base being taken with perfect tactics and coordination blah blah blah.  It's about the entire freakin war.  The setup is too difficult now to win the war in a reasonable amount of time, which is why a large map has not been even close to being reset since the latest town update, hence there is no underlying strategic goal.  The game is not balanced anymore.  Seriously, would you be happy if all the players left that enjoyed the win the war aspect of the game, cutting the player population in half?  That would be great wouldn't it, half the player base.  HTC would probably sell the damn game to EA and be done with it, and we all know what EA would do with it.  And all the furballers would wonder what went wrong and cry about how hordes, easy moders, and the xbox generation ruined the game when in reality it was their idiotic ignorance and intolerance.  Get a clue you people. 

/soapbox

I still don't see winnning big maps having anything to do with any recent changes.  I contend that big maps were always as hard to reset as they are now.

Got a chart that shows a significat difference in that?


Maybe they have tried but aren't having fun? If that's the case, they need to quit.  Numbers are on a decline if you haven't noticed.

Disposible income is down as well.  Must be due to game changes.


Quote
HiTech said himself that he is considering raising the time limit of downed buildings in the town because he himself knows that the game is not balanced.  Personally I don't think this is enough in itself, because a small squadron still can't kill a town by itself efficiently anymore because it is too spread out.  The point is, HiTech knows that the new town that he implemented has caused balancing issues and the complaints are warranted.

I missed this.  Where did HiTech address this?


wrongway
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Offline 1Boner

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #257 on: November 24, 2010, 02:35:22 PM »
I still don't see winnning big maps having anything to do with any recent changes.  I contend that big maps were always as hard to reset as they are now.

Got a chart that shows a significat difference in that?
wrongway

Read Lucshes quote on the top of page 6 of this thread.

I can save ya a trip by telling you that he says that since the introduction of the new towns and their accompanying game "improvements", base takes have been cut in half.

Not sure about you, but I believe him.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #258 on: November 24, 2010, 02:37:31 PM »
I still don't see winnning big maps having anything to do with any recent changes.  I contend that big maps were always as hard to reset as they are now.

Got a chart that shows a significat difference in that?


There were three steps that changed the rate of resets. The first one was long ago by introducing the new winning conditions (40% of both enemy coutnries)

The recent changes had significant impact. New town size & distribution made capturing bases harder, and effectively halved the rate of captures (Yes, I could make a chart but it's not so complex that a visualization is necessary... or is it? ;) )

And now the last step the new arena setup: the peak arena maps are only on for 9 hours a day. Much less time to work on.

All factors together: You need more bases to get a reset, but it's much harder to capture each base and you have much less time to do that. So we went from very frequent resets (up to more than once per day) to almost no resets



I missed this.  Where did HiTech address this?

As far as I know he mentioned only cities & factories, not town buildings: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,298324.msg3813790.html#msg3813790
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #259 on: November 24, 2010, 02:54:55 PM »
The issues with the NOE came about when they were used as the ONLY mission other than the horde.

To me spotting an NOE was difficult. Why? because I don't sit in the tower hunting for abnormalities happening in the middle of no where. By the time I saw a base flashing, or someone yelled for help I'd up at the base and get vulched. Next step up at a base farther back get halfway to the base and they would capture it. Fly the rest of the way there and the base was abandoned. Had I come with a friend in a goon we could have taken them back. No fight at all.

We couldn't defend due to high numbers of vulchers, and then they don't bother to defend because they have jumped to the other side of the map looking for another quite out of the way place to do it again. So the choices I have are either join the horde, or chase the NOE dweebs. Not fun at all. Of course I could start my own NOE mini horde and maybe pick up a vulch or two if Im lucky, again, NO FIGHTS!

The changes made are NOT that drastic, the problem is everyone is set in there ways of doing things and now those things have changed. I was happy flying my hog in the old days, then they added the 38 and those suckers shot me out of the sky all the time. I learned the 38. Picking in Furballs in my 38 was fun in the old days, we had some really big ones, then someone added the 262. Chasing down B17 over the HQ in my 262 used to be fun then they added the 163.

The game changes, get over it!. It's Hitechs play ground and he is going to do what is best for HIS business. What anyone of us say/beg/cry/whine about is nothing more than a passing interest to him unless it fits into his business plan.

Offline Lusche

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #260 on: November 24, 2010, 02:57:37 PM »
Uhmm.. you sure you didn't post this in the wrong thread?
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #261 on: November 24, 2010, 03:04:47 PM »
The issues with the NOE came about when they were used as the ONLY mission other than the horde.


Hang-on.  I'm trying to parse that.

1.  I can attack with smaller numbers using stealth and suprise.
2.  I can attack with overwhelming numbers regardless of being detected.

Uhhmmm what is the 3rd choice you recomend?

Attacking with insufficient numbers and plenty of warning?

:neener:,
Wab


« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 03:14:49 PM by AKWabbit »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #262 on: November 24, 2010, 03:10:51 PM »
This is an excellent analysis of a 3000 player survey result and their motivations. In the final analysis we need all of us to make this game an interesting place.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001298.php?page=1
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001304.php?page=1


Thats very interesting.  I read it quickly, but will look at it further this weekend.

I'll trade ya.

Check this out(probalby will get cut off):
http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/3738/table4_full.png


Here is the article that explains what you are looking at:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3738/emotion_engineering_a_scientific_.php

I was blown away once I wrapped my head around how to read that matrix.

Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #263 on: November 24, 2010, 03:13:48 PM »
.

nevermind. It's pointless.

Not pointless.  Never suggested you were 'whining' btw Lusche.   Your input is valuable in this stuff.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #264 on: November 24, 2010, 03:22:53 PM »
There were three steps that changed the rate of resets. The first one was long ago by introducing the new winning conditions (40% of both enemy coutnries)

The recent changes had significant impact. New town size & distribution made capturing bases harder, and effectively halved the rate of captures (Yes, I could make a chart but it's not so complex that a visualization is necessary... or is it? ;) )

And now the last step the new arena setup: the peak arena maps are only on for 9 hours a day. Much less time to work on.

All factors together: You need more bases to get a reset, but it's much harder to capture each base and you have much less time to do that. So we went from very frequent resets (up to more than once per day) to almost no resets


So this still comes down to folks not being able to hit the reset bar as fast as they used to?  So it's not the act of a capture that's the issue, but the speed?

This goes back to Betty's question.  Wouldn't the participation in the teamwork, and the battle to take a more difficult objective against defenders provide more satisfaction then just getting through the capture faster?  Or is it the sight of the base take on 200 coming across and the 'we've won the war' bit when the map resets that is more important?

I'm asking that seriously as I really don't understand it.  Why is switching the map so important?  Why is the speed in which it happens so important?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline krazey

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #265 on: November 24, 2010, 03:49:49 PM »
 Its not so much the speed of winning the war that bothers me as the fact that in the 5 or 6 months Ive been back I havent seen it happen ONCE... nor have I heard of it happening.
 
 Betty.. i have to say something about this... "and personally i could care less if people are taking bases, just as long as their not TT bases then its all good"
 So its ok to capture anything BUT TT bases?? Next thing somebody will say we cant take ports because then they wouldnt be able to play admiral, then someone else will say we cant take airfields cos they wanna furball. I would never consider telling anyone that they cant take this base or that base because everybody has the right to play the game the way they want, same as it is for me. So if taking that TT base would mean winning the war, darned right I'm gonna try to take it.
 If its well defended then even better. IMO the object of the game is to defeat the enemy by land air and sea ( seems ive heard that whole land air sea thing before...oh yeah , it was to do with REAL wars , fancy that) and win the victory for your country.. Or is this not a WWII sim??

Offline Lusche

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #266 on: November 24, 2010, 03:54:24 PM »
So this still comes down to folks not being able to hit the reset bar as fast as they used to?  So it's not the act of a capture that's the issue, but the speed?

This goes back to Betty's question.  Wouldn't the participation in the teamwork, and the battle to take a more difficult objective against defenders provide more satisfaction then just getting through the capture faster?  Or is it the sight of the base take on 200 coming across and the 'we've won the war' bit when the map resets that is more important?

I'm asking that seriously as I really don't understand it.  Why is switching the map so important?  Why is the speed in which it happens so important?

You do not understand it, because it's not your playing style. The war means nothing to you. And that's ok, the game should never evolve into something where you have to care about that war thing at all. I surely would whine then!  :D Just for the record, I haven't got any reset perks this year at all, mostly because I personally do care only a tad more than you ;)

Why the war is.. uhm.. important... to many, I had explained earlier:

The war game (and thus capturing bases, as for now it's the only way to win this war) is giving a lot of players a goal, something to fight for, it's keeping particularly those unwashed masses interested in the game that would otherwise quickly burn out, pure cannon fodder for a tiny ACM "elite"as they are.

And I'm afraid we can either accept that there are many players for whom flying a P-38 alone is not enough to keep them interested for long... or we can stay a ever shrinking group of hardcore enthusiasts.

And when you give them a goal, you should make sure that it's neither too easy, nor too difficult. No doubt that's hard to define at which point it's getting "too easy" or "too hard".
It's just my personal opinion that it once was way too easy (both the act of capturing a base as well as winning the war), but it's now "too hard" as a reset is hardly possible due to the reasons I stated one post earlier.
In that context might add that I found every single change itself very reasonable. It's the combination that has some side effect. And I'm not sure yet what my proposal would be. I actually would not like to see bases being captured much easier than it's the case now. I'm quite happy with the new towns. I thought I had some idea yesterday, but I noticed after some thinking that it sucked.  :lol
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:01:10 PM by Lusche »
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #267 on: November 24, 2010, 03:57:34 PM »
Help me out here Krazey.  are you the guys that despite there being a hundred other fields to take, works on taking tank town fields?  Are you the guys that despite there being a hundred other fields to take, kills the FH's at the only even dar bar fight on the map?

BTW this is not a WW2 sim.  We are not fighting WW2 here.  Think about the whines if we were doing that!
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #268 on: November 24, 2010, 04:04:08 PM »

Hang-on.  I'm trying to parse that.

1.  I can attack with smaller numbers using stealth and suprise.
2.  I can attack with overwhelming numbers regardless of being detected.

Uhhmmm what is the 3rd choice you recomend?

Attacking with insufficient numbers and plenty of warning?

:neener:,
Wab




The third choice is to use your brain and make a plan and then execute it. I know for some of you that this is really hard to understand...maybe Lusche would be kind enough to put it in to a chart for us.

Heres a plan I have in my head, haven't spent the time to run out the timings and such but here we go...

2 sets of buffs up from a base NW and one sector away from final target, at the same time another 2 groups up from a base SE a sector back. Buffs climb out heading East and West. Once they hit 5k 5 fighters lift, all heavy with either rockets or 500 lbs, not both (easier to dump). 2 fighter head for the NW group of buffs, 2 for the SE group, meeting up at about 10k as escort/clean up. They turn into target at 10-12k from the north and south at about the same time from 25 miles out. 5th fighter runs in hard at 5-7k and takes out dar of target base and at least one other base. Buffs carpet bomb the town, with 4 sets hitting at around the same time town would be close to flat with even a minor amount of skill.  Buffs roll out and head of in the same direction, maybe toward other base that had dar hit as a decoy. Fighter clean up any buildings left up and cap. Goons could run with buffs, or NOE from a couple directions, or M3's or jeeps could run in troops depending on target field.  

This plan uses 10-11 guys. Will it capture the base every time? I don't think so, but it WILL work some of the time. It uses the dar from a number of sectors for the launch to help confuse/mask the target. The buffs are at alt so they are some what protected, and should hit with a good percentage. Having a couple of goons and or M3's help get the troops in. It does however take time to climb to alt, co-ordinate way-points to have the fighters hook up with the buffs, needs the dar killer to hit a number of dar with out dieing, buffs pilots that can use our most difficult "lazer" bomb sites and hit what they are aiming at.

The point is the "game has become too hard" and a number of players are crying because they can't cope. Suck it up!  

The fighter guys are never going to convince the land capture guys that the reason for the game is combat. Mainly because the land grabbers that cry the most are those players that got hooked into doing everything the easy way and don't want to take the time to learn how to do it any other way. The only thing they played for was the quick snatch and grab. Will its gone, suck it up.

The land capture people are never going to convince the fighter guys that the war is important. It's only important to the fighter guys so that they have targets to shoot down. Some of us like to have those targets fight back, but most are just after a quick kill and move on to the next.  If the land capture people take their ball and go home instead of adapting, the targets will dry up.

These never ending arguments back and forth accomplish nothing. Hitech is going to do what is best for his business. The rest of us might as well just suck it up and take it. The other choice is to go play WoW or something. Suggest away, but again, Hitech will do what HE thinks best. People piss and moan when they take away their favorite plane (ENY), people piss and moan when the maps don't change quick enough, people piss and moan because they can't hide from the fights, and people piss and moan because they can't run their favorite parnold bellybutton mission. Your a bunch or namby pambies! Suck it up !

Offline Guppy35

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #269 on: November 24, 2010, 04:05:30 PM »
You do not understand it, because it's not your playing style. The war means nothing to you. And that's ok, the game should never evolve into something where you have to care about that war thing at all. I surely would whine then!  :D Just for the record, I haven't got any reset perks this year at all, mostly because I personally do care only a tad more than you ;)

Why the war is.. uhm.. important... to many, I had explained earlier:

And I'm afraid we can either accept that there are many players for whom flying a P-38 alone is not enough to keep them interested for long... or we can stay a ever shrinking group of hardcore enthusiasts.

And when you give them a goal, you should make sure that it's neither too easy, nor too difficult. No doubt that's hard to define at which point it's getting "too easy" or "too hard".
It's just my personal opinion that it once was way too easy (both the act of capturing a base as well as winning the war), but it's now "too hard" as a reset is hardly possible due to the reasons I stated one post earlier.
In that context might add that I found every single change itself very reasonable. It's the combination that has some side effect. And I'm not sure yet what my proposal would be. I actually would not like to see bases being captured much easier than it's the case now. I'm quite happy with the new towns. I thought I had some idea yesterday, but I noticed after some thinking that it sucked.  :lol

What this reminds me of is the old Airwarrior set up of Relaxed Realism, vs Full Realism.   Everyone started in RR and it always had the most people in it.  It was easier to succeed as it was in essence simplified so that doing well happened faster.  Folks who stuck around long enough moved on to Full Real where the game was harder and success tougher to come by.  

I'm not suggesting that for AH, but it seems like that's what is essentially being described.
Dan/CorkyJr
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