Author Topic: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!  (Read 22159 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #285 on: November 24, 2010, 04:51:50 PM »
Its not so much the speed of winning the war that bothers me as the fact that in the 5 or 6 months Ive been back I havent seen it happen ONCE... nor have I heard of it happening.


You don't play very much it seems.  The maps have been reset many, many, many times in the time you claim.

Quote
Or is this not a WWII sim??

No it's not.


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Offline Lusche

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #286 on: November 24, 2010, 04:52:10 PM »
Had a moment of inspiration or indigestion depending on your perspective :)

Set up the two LW arenas.  Same map rotation in each with mainly if not only small maps.  One is labeled Late war Old.  The other Late war New.  Put New on top.  Old has the old settings, New has the current settings.

Open the doors, see what happens.  Would folks go to New because it's on top and because it says New?  Would people figure out that Old has the settings that allow for rapid resets?

Would a follow up Lusche chart show that the Old arena was reset twice as fast as New?  Would the numbers in New remain higher because it's on top?  The pie charts are endless? :)

hehe interesting experiment, endless possibilities for piecharts (unfortunately the effort to track # of captures & resets is horrible)
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Offline Lusche

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #287 on: November 24, 2010, 04:58:20 PM »
I'm talking about the fight associated with taking a base which seems that some players like to avoid in order to be able to capture a base quickly.  

That's why I'm with Dan and feel that most of those complaining are doing so because they now feel that they can't take a base as fast as they could in the past and they now have to actually face the prospect of getting into a fight, possibly a long and protracted one to capture a base.  You guys can look at squadrons like the vGuys, they will only attack undefended bases with a mass hord and as soon as opposition ups in force to defend the base, the vGuys leave and look for the next undefended base.  Where is the fun in that?

ack-ack

And that's why I personally do not want to go back to easier to capture bases. I'm thinking about different adjustments that could increase the rate of resets, but not by making individual captures effortless. I do want people to fight. I do want to fight them. As mentioned before, I approved (not that anybody would care) many changes in the past that made grbbing less easy... the increase of acks, the bigger and less clearly laid out towns and so on.
The vguys... I like them. I jump from base to base, trying to wreck their attempts. Easy targets for the most part, fits my lame lone wolf style ;)

But enough. Must fly again. Killing cartoon planes more important than BBS argument  :joystick:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 05:01:47 PM by Lusche »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #288 on: November 24, 2010, 05:01:03 PM »
Maybe it's because of the game we originally started with that we have these views.

...

The above part I quoted is what made the battles in AW such fun.  It was the fight to destroy or defend the base or factories that made AW such a blast, with large scale air battles lasting for hours.  I still fondly remember a battle to take out the Azland Spitfire factory that lasted over 3 hours.  



Is that a completely fair comparison?

Fighting a 3 hour battle to capture one of 120 bases you’re going to have to capture would have some emotional impact admittedly.

But is it really the same as fighting a 3 hour battle to deny your enemy access to their most popular aircraft?

I think the latter is a greater reward for the effort expended.


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Offline oTRALFZo

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #289 on: November 24, 2010, 05:09:16 PM »
Not trying to hijack here, but I think what this game needs is a system that encourages people to put themselves at a disadvantage and get rewarded ONLY if they overcome it.

Everyone wants to dictate the fight. Everyone wants to be higher, have the #s advantage or the element of surprise. Fact is its the only way to get a quick adrenaline rush so why not NOE, or horde or just hang out at 25k to pick?

Imagine if the text bar read: "XXX killed 4 vulchers" or "XXX survived a 4vs1". Probably a nightmare to code, but imagine the possabilities.
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Offline FALCONWING

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #290 on: November 24, 2010, 05:13:23 PM »
The thing I don't get is that the most repetitive crap on earth is to be found in games like WOW ( I know nothing about AION but from the website it looks to be "about the same" to my admittedly less than expert eye) .   Excluding the burnout factor you are alluding to, what I just don't get is how much everyone loves the repetitive nature of the game play in WOW to the tune of 100's of thousands of subscribers and 10's of thousands of hours of repetitive leveling up, yet here (where there's so many more options for game play) it's considered to be a game fault?

<S>

I guess I would ask you to explain what is NOT repetitive about this game???  Sure every encounter has its own flavor but in general if all you do is DA type behavior is that not repetitive as well???

What I enjoy is "doing something" for a purpose....even thought i am logging 10 hours at a time in Aion, I am seeing the results by leveling up and getting better and better equipment.  I can also start PvP (player vs Player) at higher levels which unlocks another side of the game...i can choose to solo quest OR join a group to acheive a different type of quest OR develop crafting skill etc OR fight other players....really the possibilities are endless and the graphics knock you off your feet....

Now don't get me wrong i know that a ww2 flight sim can't do all this....but what is the purpose of a squad anymore???  I log on to run squad night and find 90% of what we used to be able to do is gone....instead we can horde or defend against a horde...i dont even watch the map anymore because noone is readily noe'ing a base with a megatown with mega-ack....we spend more time sitting inthe tower catching up on personal chit-chat and being frustrated.  Alot of the guys are hoping the IL-2 sim....whatever it is....will be good enough so we can move over there....I'm not 100% sure what it is but they seem anxious for it to come out....as you can check my stats i play about 2 hours a week on squadnight right now....

The bottom line is what you said...you may not "get it" but hundreds of thousands of folks play WoW, EQ2 and Aionm while we struggle to keep our numbers stable.....and AW was one of the first true online games!  Its too bad really....
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #291 on: November 24, 2010, 05:23:57 PM »

Is that a completely fair comparison?

Fighting a 3 hour battle to capture one of 120 bases you’re going to have to capture would have some emotional impact admittedly.

But is it really the same as fighting a 3 hour battle to deny your enemy access to their most popular aircraft?

I think the latter is a greater reward for the effort expended.


 Wab




Yes, it is a fair comparison because the battles that took place to protect the factories didn't only happen when the factories were the target.  It was more common to have the same size scope battles for the regular bases and even more so for the Big Lake N bases.  The battles in Valley of Dweebs would last all day long just trying to shut down either of the VOD bases. 

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Offline NCLawman

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #292 on: November 24, 2010, 05:38:58 PM »
I think some are getting caught up in extremes.  I am with Grizz (if I have followed the discussion correctly) in that the game needs balance.  I also agree with one or two portions of what Betty has posted.  The game is much more entertaining and satisfying to fight the enemy and win the field (by field I don't mean the win to vulch). 

I like to think I am a blend of the perspectives.  I want to come over to YOUR base and FIGHT YOU for it.  When I win, I deserve to take your land.  When I lose you deserve to keep your land, or better yet, you can counter attack and now take MY land.  Admittedly rolling a base that no one wants to defend is about as exciting as watching paint dry.  In my opinion, the game IS about the fight.  But I also admit that I want to 'win a trophy' (i.e. your base) after I fight and beat you.

The problem is NOT that the town is too hard.  It is that the town has become so large and spread out that the only reasonable way to put it all down (to effect the take after the fight) is to roll in such numbers that it is inevitable that the 'horde' becomes a vulch.  AND THAT TOO is about as fun as watching paint dry.  I guess what I am trying to explain is that the size, layout, and defense (ack) dictates the size of the force that is needed to put the town in a capture-able position.  Too much town requires such a large force that a horde ensues.  Too little town allows for 'sneaks' and the base is captured before a single defender even realizes the base is lost.  In my opinion, both scenarios suck (to put in Politically correct terms).

So the balance that Grizz (as I read it) is so artfully trying to explain, is that the ability to capture land must be balanced so that there will be 10 different fights of 10 people rather than 1 fight of 100 people (or 100 fights of 1 person. LOL)

I truly believe that there can be a balance and that it is NOT that 'Winz the Warz' is best or that 'furballz' is best.  It is that the GAME is best, and the best way to promote the continued GAME is balancing to promote good fights all over the map rather than a single fight (or lack thereof) rolling in one direction or another.

 :cheers: 

 
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Offline Wildcat1

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #293 on: November 24, 2010, 05:48:09 PM »
he'll be back in 2 weeks
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
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Offline ink

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #294 on: November 24, 2010, 06:17:58 PM »
TRALFZ......You are wrong, not everyone wants to fight from the advantage, not everyone wants to fight in the hourd......I for one go out of my way to fight unsurmountable odds, I always attack when I am at the disadvantage, when there are more then a couple green guys around me I go elsewhere, and I know I am not the only one to play like this, I truly dont care about the war, scores, seeing my name in lights, a high k/d %, any of that, I just love the fact that I get a chance to pretend to be a cartoon WW2 pilot.....and of course the adrenaline rush that comes along with fighting multi cons.....ive said before I aint winning unless im dieing......:-)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #295 on: November 24, 2010, 06:35:25 PM »
TRALFZ......You are wrong, not everyone wants to fight from the advantage, not everyone wants to fight in the hourd......I for one go out of my way to fight unsurmountable odds, I always attack when I am at the disadvantage, when there are more then a couple green guys around me I go elsewhere, and I know I am not the only one to play like this, I truly dont care about the war, scores, seeing my name in lights, a high k/d %, any of that, I just love the fact that I get a chance to pretend to be a cartoon WW2 pilot.....and of course the adrenaline rush that comes along with fighting multi cons.....ive said before I aint winning unless im dieing......:-)

I get this part :)

I had Changeup say to me the other night, "You really do want to go in low in that 38G don't you?"   We were headed towards a sea of red at the time :)

Falc, I get what you are saying.  At the same time for me the squad is a bunch of like minded folks who enjoy doing similar things.  Last night for the last run of the night, Soulyss, Cactus and I went out in P39s on a sweep into an area where we knew the cons would be more and higher.  It was purely for fun and to feed the 5th AF 39 history fascination we all seem to have.  Soulyss posted a great AAR of his and cactus's P39 run in the AvA today in 1942 New Guinea style.

Running 25s on the deck to try and take guns to the fleet is much the same.  It's "Bismarck Sea" 1943.  It all depends on what you enjoy as a squad.

A bunch of 38s in green trim out on the prowl looking for fight is most often great fun.

One of the reasons I want the Beaufighter is for the MA.  It's a low level ground attack bird.  Guess what I imagine myself doing with it? :)
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Offline longtime

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #296 on: November 24, 2010, 07:28:19 PM »
LOL qbert..nice troll..no one could be that big of a sissy..if you are..go to wow..wear tights and be a fairy.

Offline dirt911

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #297 on: November 24, 2010, 08:39:26 PM »
I get this part :)

I had Changeup say to me the other night, "You really do want to go in low in that 38G don't you?"   We were headed towards a sea of red at the time :)

Falc, I get what you are saying.  At the same time for me the squad is a bunch of like minded folks who enjoy doing similar things.  Last night for the last run of the night, Soulyss, Cactus and I went out in P39s on a sweep into an area where we knew the cons would be more and higher.  It was purely for fun and to feed the 5th AF 39 history fascination we all seem to have.  Soulyss posted a great AAR of his and cactus's P39 run in the AvA today in 1942 New Guinea style.

Running 25s on the deck to try and take guns to the fleet is much the same.  It's "Bismarck Sea" 1943.  It all depends on what you enjoy as a squad.

A bunch of 38s in green trim out on the prowl looking for fight is most often great fun.

One of the reasons I want the Beaufighter is for the MA.  It's a low level ground attack bird.  Guess what I imagine myself doing with it? :)


Sitting at 30k trying to down a 262?

Offline pluck

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #298 on: November 24, 2010, 08:51:53 PM »

Sitting at 30k trying to down a 262?

 :headscratch:
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!
« Reply #299 on: November 24, 2010, 10:33:03 PM »


The above part I quoted is what made the battles in AW such fun.  It was the fight to destroy or defend the base or factories that made AW such a blast, with large scale air battles lasting for hours.  I still fondly remember a battle to take out the Azland Spitfire factory that lasted over 3 hours.  



ack-ack

May be a wall of text. But I encourage all to read it through as it provides a possible solution that may be acceptable to the largest segment

I remember fondly those days as well. Did destroying those spit factories have anything to do with winning the war as it was perceived back then?
No, right?

I'd like to move away from map resets for a moment. The reason being is it seems to me. Or has at least been my experience that being present to reset a map is due largely to luck then anything else. Think of all the hours you (anyone) are on. How often do you (anyone) really see a map reset?

That being said. I'd like to go back and revisit what has been mentioned earlier about Strat, What Ack  Ack said in the portion I quoted, And the first line in this post.
The strat portion of the game is where IMO it is the most lax. Its the largest portion of the game that for lack of a better term is broken.

Q -Why were hitting the spit factories and defense of those factories so popular?
A- Because they had a direct effect on the game.

But they didnt cripple the game. They never had any lasting effect on the outcome of the night. But they were important enough to bother trying to defend.
We have wonderful beautifully rendered strat targets now. But how often do people really try to bomb them? And just how many really bother to defend them?

Few. Why? the answers are simple and obvious. On the attacking side While you can rack up points bombing them. They dont accomplish anything other then garner perks and perhaps ranks. But on a  meaningful level they have next to no effect on anything.
From a defensive standpoint. You dont see many upping to defend against this because again. They have no meaningful effect on anything.
So why bother? And thats why you dont see very many strat missions.
If you want to have an effect on the game. Your actually better off flying to and dropping the hangars at a feild and "ruining a furball"

As I mentioned earlier. the reasons why the fights over the spit factories were so popular is because they had a direct and immediate although relatively short lived effect on the game itself. Therfore they were important enough to make hitting them AND defending them worthwhile.

The strat targets here have been dummied down so much that they have no real effect on the game. Again there is no compelling reason to hit or defend them. People want not only things to do. But want to have a reason for things to do. They want to have an impact. Right now strat targets provide neither.

Possible solution to consider.
Return to the "zone" system with some tweaks. Keep these wonderfully designed strat targets. but give the strat targes some meaning. And assign 1 strat target of differing types to each base in the "zone"
Examples of strat targets
Spit Factory
Ammo Factory
Heavy Bomber factory
Railway/resupply Depot.

Each field would have 1 factory assigned to it within a zone Possibly placed somewhere near the town at a point evenly spaced between the field and Gv spawn points (Gives the GVers something else to fight in and over) And would also make sense aesthetically and logically because the fictitious townspeople would supply labor to the factories  and the military base would provide for the defence of both. Pretty meaningless but would add to the immersion depth but again. would provide for another battlefeild for the GVs to fight in

Hitting the strat targets should eliminate or reduce in stages the ability of all bases within that zone to conduct operations of that given type.

Examples.
Destroying a spit factory would mean no spits would be able to up from any base within that zone. Same thing with the heavy bomber factories.
Ammo factories can be set to effect the ordinance available by degree of destruction. Totally destroyed ammo factory would mean only the lightest of bombs or rockets would be available within that zone. while a moderately destroyed ammo factory would only effect the heaviest of ord.
Railway/resupply Depots (trains & trucks) would reduce the amount of trains and/or resupply trucks that would be available to Resupply bases and factories. Possibly located at the rearmost "primary zone base"

To prevent milkrunning and abuse of this by the hordes. These factories and supply routes should always be property of the native country and can only be rebuilt by that country until such a time that all bases within a zone are captured. At which point they revert to being the property of the attacking country
Long story short. Lets say Horde A comes in an obliterates the ammo factory connected to the field they are attacking. Then they capture that base. Wonderful. Good for that horde. BUT in obliterating that ammo factory also means they too cannot up heavy ords from that feild until such a time as that factory regenerates.
also attacking that factory from that newly captured base will have the same adverse effects on that feild as it does to the native country untill such a point where all the bases in that zone are captured.

In this way it would be much to the attacking countries benifit to try to capture bases within a zone with the factories more or less intact
Yet it still provides enough reason to attack these strat targets as well as enough reason to defend them.

Making These strats zone oriented means that only those bases within a particular zone are effected. Meaning you can still up your uber spit16.Or up with 1K bombs Just not from that zone.

And of course we could always expand o this to have more of a national effect by having even more major factories (Ball Bearings) deep within a country like we have HQ that would effect maybe all late war "uber" rides spits,P51's La7's 190D's Late war tanks etc

Anyone willing to take that long to fly that deep and actually make it. Deserves to have a greater impact. And anyone willing to let them fly that deep unscathed. Deserves whatever they get stuck with.


This IMO has several benefits. It provides real reason to attack strats which simple do not exist now. real reason to defend them which also doesn't exist now. Yet it doesn't seriously effect the furball crowd, nor unduly reward the hordes.
 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 10:36:49 PM by DREDIOCK »
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