Author Topic: Need for Localized ENY  (Read 2839 times)

Offline NCLawman

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Need for Localized ENY
« on: November 26, 2010, 10:17:22 AM »
Logged on (Late War) to find that BISH are getting steamrolled on two fronts.  Rooks and Knits have once again decided to have an extra-marital affair rather than fight each other.  The Knit horde attacking from the south and the Rook attacking from the west.  Rooks are able to fly bombers right into BISH HQ and Knits are rolling bases in the south.

Go to a nearby base to get a fighter for some bomber lunch, and find that ENY is so high, BISH CANNOT defend.  BISH getting double team pounced, but are plagued by ENY???   Please help me understand how THAT is good for the game?

 :(


*** edit for spelling ***
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 10:19:13 AM by NCLawman »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 10:27:00 AM »
I agree completely. The current side balancing measures are completely blind to the disposition of forces. Until a system is in place that accounts for how the constituent forces of each country are arrayed it will continue to be inherently deeply flawed. Very rarely are forces of each country arrayed in perfect balance, but the side balancing measures are predicated upon that very supposition.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 10:38:02 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline NCLawman

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 10:38:32 AM »
Well, I did my part to lower BISH ENY, I logged off.

Even the standard "Switch" countries response does not apply in this situation.  If I switch, I am only further exacerbating the problem by becoming one of the 'horders'.

Before the flames begin, I am NOT suggesting that only BISH are victims of this ENY issue.  I am certain that there are occasions where it affects ROOK and KNITS also.  There is no monopoly on getting double teamed.  This is why a localized ENY or some other means of 'side leveling' should be in place to account for the lack of fight between the other two countries.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 10:42:22 AM »
Yes exactly, see my post below from a similar thread recently...


Just knee jerk switching to the low-side isn't necessarily the right move. Often the two low countries are ganging up on the higher #'d country. Say Knights have 100 people and Rooks and Bish each have 75 people. Often , especially on certain maps, the combined 150 Bish & Rooks are almost exclusively arrayed against the 100 Knights, putting them at a crushing disadvantage, so switching off Knights would actually hurt gameplay. So, before you switch, check the map to see how the forces are arrayed. Also, if there are more than 100 people in an arena anything less than 10% variance between #'s has negligible impact on gameplay. Now, if there's less than 100 people in the arena 10% or even less disparity can make a dramatic difference in gameplay.

 I have seen squaddies log-in, check country status with 300+ people in the arena, see Rooks have 8 less people than Knights and switch to Rooks, which is just silly from a statistical perspective. Without factoring in how forces are arrayed and understanding the concept of statistical insignificance this kind of move would at best have zero impact on gameplay and could possibly hurt gameplay if forces are arrayed disproportionately, which they almost always are to some degree.

The above example exemplifies one glaring shortcoming of the side balancing measures in place. It doesn't take into account how the forces of each country are arrayed. Just because a team has more people on paper doesn't mean they are not getting tag teamed by the other two simply because they happen to be sitting in the reset corner of a particular map. The opposite can be true too, a team with low #'s in reset corner can be fighting both the two higher number country's forces so their actual numerical disadvantage is much, much worse than the side-balancing measures calculate.

This is when people get really pissed off about the side balancing and ENY stuff. Just last week this happened and it happens all the time. All day Knights had the most #'s, throughout the day they were even penalized by the ENY limiter. But, all day, with the exception of perhaps a dozen Rooks and Bish combined fighting each other off and on, everyone else was fighting Knights. So, in reality they were numerically disadvantaged all day AND getting penalized by the ENY limiter. But, if you checked the Country Status it would look like they had a healthy numbers lead on paper, in reality they were getting swamped and losing bases left and right...So, anyone who switches without examining the map, purely based on the Country Status readout, is deeply flawed and just as likely to do harm as good to overall gameplay...

As a general rule, even without examining the map, if the difference between a given side is less then the average number of idle players not in-flight, you're not accomplishing anything by switching...So, switching can be a huge boon to gameplay if done for the right reason based upon the right information. But, it can also hurt gameplay if done for the right reason but based upon the wrong information. This is especially true for high impact players..those that kill a lot, therefore have a disproportionately higher impact on gameplay balance than your average player.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 10:44:00 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline NCLawman

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 11:47:42 AM »
Thank you Zazen for the supporting posts.  You are exactly right in the assessment.

 :salute

Hopefully this idea will catch on and maybe HTC might consider addressing it. 
 :cheers:
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 12:26:28 PM »
Hitler would have loved the ENY  :noid
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Offline R 105

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 12:27:38 PM »
What is needed with this new set up is organized missions with at least 75% of the logged on Bishops in the mission.  Most times we ahve 75 guys on at 75 bases doing 75 things and not any 2 people working together at anything. Now it is your $14.95 and if your thing is being ran off the map by the Rooks & knights, so be it. The Rooks and Knights are not fighting each other mostly. All you have to do is look at the bases flashing to see it. Part of that may be the map that is up at the time.

So if you don't like getting steam rolled by the Rooks & Knights and you want to know how to stop them. Here is a clue, Next time you see mission up, join it. With the arena as it is now the only way to have success is mass numbers. Some of the old timers run real good missions. Another way to slow down an advance is to pork the ords at the attacking bases. This sounds simple and it is but very few people take to time to do it. No troops,No ords, No base capture about sums it up. One P-51D with two 500 lbs bombs can take out the ords at a large base and fly away. CSA General Nathan Bedford Forrest said, Get there first with the most. That is good advise.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2010, 12:45:49 PM »
I've posted numerous times on this issue to no avail.  I completely agree there should be localized ENY.
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Offline NCLawman

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 12:48:08 PM »
What is needed with this new set up is organized missions with at least 75% of the logged on Bishops in the mission.  Most times we ahve 75 guys on at 75 bases doing 75 things and not any 2 people working together at anything. Now it is your $14.95 and if your thing is being ran off the map by the Rooks & knights, so be it. The Rooks and Knights are not fighting each other mostly. All you have to do is look at the bases flashing to see it. Part of that may be the map that is up at the time.

So if you don't like getting steam rolled by the Rooks & Knights and you want to know how to stop them. Here is a clue, Next time you see mission up, join it. With the arena as it is now the only way to have success is mass numbers. Some of the old timers run real good missions. Another way to slow down an advance is to pork the ords at the attacking bases. This sounds simple and it is but very few people take to time to do it. No troops,No ords, No base capture about sums it up. One P-51D with two 500 lbs bombs can take out the ords at a large base and fly away. CSA General Nathan Bedford Forrest said, Get there first with the most. That is good advise.


Well, there it is.... the answer I have been looking for.  After all these years of AH, I never knew I could join a mission and be a part of a horde.   :rofl   Also, thank for teaching me how to read the AH clipboard map.  I also have never learned that task, and now that you have explained it, I will sleep much better at night.   :rofl

I don't want to fly in a mission (using your numbers) with 56.25 people.  What exactly am I going to shoot at with 55.25 other BISH flying around?

The point of the thread, was that I COULD NOT up a P51 and go porking because the ENY was so high as BISH were apparently the high numbers.  However, the high numbers were outweighed by the fact they were being double teamed.  

Maybe instead of being an armchair general, you should go back to the bathroom and finish popping the zits on your face.  If your missions are anything like what you describe above from Nathan Bedford Forrest, that is why you can't get anyone to join you.  As you said, its your $14.95, but I fail to see the fun in flying where the only risk of death is from the killshooter.

 
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 01:32:04 PM »
The localized ENY issue has been brought up many times, and has been shot down  many times.  Honestly, I think people should stop pursuing it and figure out a different way to deal with ENY.   I won't go into reasons localized ENY has been rejected because they've already been said in other threads.  BTW, I don't want to criticize, but there are plenty of other aircraft options for porking besides a P-51.

I often criticize people who complain about issues as only perceiving the problem by thinking it's a problem (HOs, Lancstukas) so I have to word this carefully; I have perceived that for the last few weeks, Bish have been on the bad side of a dead front.  Not all the time, but very often.  So when numbers between sides A, B, & C are equal, but A & C aren't fighting each other, B is facing 2 to 1 odds everywhere.  I don't have any idea how to solve this, but I'm almost positive it won't be done with a local ENY.  The issue is somewhat exacerbated when you can't switch to a different arena.  I think it needs to be given more time to see if this is a rarely occurring problem or a culmination of various things that really is a game play issue. I will agree with you that when you can't up anything less than a 25 ENY plane (happened briefly last night to me) but everywhere you go, you're still outnumbered, is not right.

Try and find a way to have fun anyway, more than once I've upped for a long fight to try and stir up a fight between two enemy bases.
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Offline thndregg

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2010, 01:46:06 PM »
My perception, for what it's worth:

Although I am most likely in error, it seems to me Rooks especially are more adept at being resource-savvy. As in, they know what the real priority is in base defense, and how to prevent troops from rolling in, as in porking the barracks that allow that to happen. On the offensive, they are more adept at capping & suppressing any & all opposition prior to rolling troops in. If all goon-hunting forces are obliterated, cap is established, hence troops have a clear way in. And that leads to them porking the means in which Bish or Knits try to take the base back, as in pork the barracks.
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Offline jolly22

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 01:50:21 PM »
BRING BACK THE ZONE BASES!!!!!!!

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 02:05:07 PM »
I have perceived that for the last few weeks, Bish have been on the bad side of a dead front.  Not all the time, but very often.  So when numbers between sides A, B, & C are equal, but A & C aren't fighting each other, B is facing 2 to 1 odds everywhere.  I don't have any idea how to solve this, but I'm almost positive it won't be done with a local ENY. 

In fact localized ENY would solve this problem.

I think it needs to be given more time to see if this is a rarely occurring problem or a culmination of various things that really is a game play issue.

This problem has existed since I started playing AW in 1996.  How much longer should we wait?

I will agree with you that when you can't up anything less than a 25 ENY plane (happened briefly last night to me) but everywhere you go, you're still outnumbered, is not right.

So you do agree.


The solution really is pretty simple. Take an airfield and go out three sectors in every direction for a total block of 49 sectors (7x7) including the airfield in the center sector.  Calculate how many friendlies and how many enemies are in that block of 49 sectors and calculate ENY.  That ENY applies to any aircraft trying to up from that airfield in the middle of that block of sectors.  Do so for every airfield on the map.  Any airfield with no enemies present are ruled by the overall arena ENY (i.e. local ENY overides arena-wide ENY).
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 02:06:26 PM »
BRING BACK THE ZONE BASES!!!!!!!

I'm not sure how that should change anything in regard to this thread's topic?  :headscratch:
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Need for Localized ENY
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 02:27:48 PM »
In fact localized ENY would solve this problem.

This problem has existed since I started playing AW in 1996.  How much longer should we wait?

So you do agree.


The solution really is pretty simple. Take an airfield and go out three sectors in every direction for a total block of 49 sectors (7x7) including the airfield in the center sector.  Calculate how many friendlies and how many enemies are in that block of 49 sectors and calculate ENY.  That ENY applies to any aircraft trying to up from that airfield in the middle of that block of sectors.  Do so for every airfield on the map.  Any airfield with no enemies present are ruled by the overall arena ENY (i.e. local ENY overides arena-wide ENY).

I didn't want to come off as against local ENY, but the idea has been rejected so much I don't see how HTC will suddenly change it's mind.  It seems HTC doesn't think this is a problem.  As players, if we feel this is a problem, we need to prove to them that it does have a negative effect on game play.  I feel it's a problem but have no proof past, "I feel like it," and that's hardly convincing.  Over these next few weeks I'm going to try and compile some data about this issue to see the effect of this.  I think unequivocal proof of a problem needs to be present before solutions are discussed.  Hopefully in a couple of weeks I will have some hard data of that.
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