If you could perform a genocide of one airplane

[jollyFE]

b-29

[Karnak]

Changeup,

The B-239 was not the export model to all those countries.  The only nation to get B-239s was Finland.  As I recall, the Commonwealth got B-339Es, the Dutch got B-339s which were a bit lighter than the 339Es but still not as light as the 239s by any means.

Also, the A6M2 will out turn the B-239, just not my much.  The B-239 does out turn the A6M5, but the A6M5 has far superior vertical performance and speed.

[B3YT]

isnt this what we already have but they just called it a 16 instead? i remember a very long conversation about this but i dont remember what was correct

    Pssst it was a joke.......

[Changeup]

Changeup,

The B-239 was not the export model to all those countries.  The only nation to get B-239s was Finland.  As I recall, the Commonwealth got B-339Es, the Dutch got B-339s which were a bit lighter than the 339Es but still not as light as the 239s by any means.

Also, the A6M2 will out turn the B-239, just not my much.  The B-239 does out turn the A6M5, but the A6M5 has far superior vertical performance and speed.

Karnak,

Read my second post it explains it better....note the time difference too.  It was Ack Ack that claimed those countries received the 239's, not I...I outlined EXACTLY what you typed.......and according to the AH wiki material, your turning information is incorrect along with a few guys that are zeke drivers (and Brew drivers) that I have asked, in game.  Now, that is just their opinion but it seems to be AH opinion as well.

Changeup

[Ack-Ack]

Karnak,
  It was Ack Ack that claimed those countries received the 239's, not I...I .

Changeup

In your crusade to prove me wrong, you unfortunately didn't read my post very carefully.  I never claimed any country other than Finland used the Model B-239.  This is my quote from the last post.  Please read it carefully this time.

If you want to learn about the Brewster in Finnish service, and how performance wise was better than the versions that saw service in the Dutch East Indies AF, Commonwealth AF's and US these are some excellent articles. 

Enjoy.

ack-ack

[JUGgler]

On the deck it can handle anything in the right hands.....and those hands are anyone that is 6 months ingame or longer.  Take a poll...to argue that point is bordering on deef.  I haven't flown it to compression yet, hangs on its prop like a zeke and turns better than a zeke or a 16.  If you could see out of it better, you could barely stop the thing....does that sound like the kinda performance that the Allies would have sold/leased as used equipment???  OVERMODELED.

I don't think the Brew is overmodeled, with that said the damn thing is quite easy to fly indeed! very very very easy! IMO    

[WWhiskey]

the dive seems to be overly impressive in the brew!  other than that, i could not say,, but don't get under it and slow!

 My choice would be the spits,,  just because there seems to be soooooo many!

[321BAR]

    Pssst it was a joke.......

[Wmaker]

Changeup,

Nothing you've posted in this thread proves that Brewster is overmodelled.

In AH:

- The weight is correct

- Top speeds are correct

- Climb rate is correct

...looking it from the aerodynamical/physics point of view, with those things above being correct, there's very little that can be wrong.

It seems that your lack of understanding of what were actually important fighter performance characteristics in the real war, makes you draw wrong conclusions. Aces High MA action doesn't really resemble real war.

[Changeup]

Again, if it helps players soothe their ego to claim that they thoroughly out flown by an obsolete early war plane is over modeled so be it.

If you want to learn about the Brewster in Finnish service, and how performance wise was better than the versions that saw service in the Dutch East Indies AF, Commonwealth AF's and US these are some excellent articles.  ack-ack

Ack

Yes, you are correct...you indicated that the Fins received a better version than the other countries, which is wrong, as listed in my prior post.  The other countries received the 339's, more engine, more refinements. 

I haven't found the documentation of what the Finn's changed, which could be substantial, when they went on producing them on their own.  My point is fairly simple....it flies its fight radius better than any a/c in the game, extends that radius with its negative vertical, uncompressable dive ability, holds its E, arguably as well as some other late war heavier a/c on the way back up.....in game.  To me, that doesn't sound like the kind of a/c the US would have wanted to get rid of during the war.  I understand that is an opinion and I am not a pilot but it sure sounds like if the Zeke is modeled correctly in game, with the same pilot flying against himself, it loses against the Brew co alt, co E everytime.  Why?  the Brew can just dive the Zeke into compression and then have his way with him.  If the Zeke doesnt follow, the Brew extends, turns and gets it on all over again.

Ack - I never said to be stupid and try to turn with it...I understand everyone's flying/fighting style is different...there are a lot of pilots in game that take their F4U's on the deck with a Brew or their Spit variants etc etc...you choose to BnZ Brews as you should in that 38 you fly.  Whether someone decides to stay on the deck with a Brew is immaterial to the overmodeled argument.

By the accounts I've read, the US trashed the Brew early for performance reasons right?  If it performed real world as it does in game, I would have wanted one!!! lol  I would like to see the same kind of dive charts as we have for climb charts, from a source that is credible...just out of curiousity.  Did it compress in the real world or not?  Speed limitations? etc etc.  Until then, no one can say it isn't truly overmodeled.  Modeled as close to the real as the other planes in this game???  Probably so I guess.

Changeup

[Wmaker]

Yes, you are correct...you indicated that the Fins received a better version than the other countries, which is wrong, as listed in my prior post.  The other countries received the 339's, more engine, more refinements.

It isn't as simple as that. I suggest you do some reading on the differences of these variants.

I haven't found the documentation of what the Finn's changed, which could be substantial, when they went on producing them on their own.

Finns made exactly one prototype of "a Brewster clone" they were looking to produce. That plan was scrapped. Finns didn't produce any Brewsters, they bought them. Except for the pilot armor and that .30 cal replaced by a .50...nothing was changed that is of any concern in AH.

My point is fairly simple....it flies its fight radius better than any a/c in the game,

If you mean that it has the smallest turn radius in the game, you are wrong.

extends that radius with its negative vertical, uncompressable dive ability, holds its E, arguably as well as some other late war heavier a/c on the way back up.....in game. 

Until you produce some proper results from in-game testing, the above is just your subjective opinion and therefore utterly meaningless.

To me, that doesn't sound like the kind of a/c the US would have wanted to get rid of during the war.  I understand that is an opinion and I am not a pilot but it sure sounds like if the Zeke is modeled correctly in game, with the same pilot flying against himself, it loses against the Brew co alt, co E everytime.  Why?  the Brew can just dive the Zeke into compression and then have his way with him.  If the Zeke doesnt follow, the Brew extends, turns and gets it on all over again.

Zero's high control forces and Brewster's light control forces at high speeds are both well documented facts.

By the accounts I've read, the US trashed the Brew early for performance reasons right? 

Not nearly as simple as that, I suggest you do more reading on the subject.

If it performed real world as it does in game, I would have wanted one!!! lol  I would like to see the same kind of dive charts as we have for climb charts, from a source that is credible...just out of curiousity.  Did it compress in the real world or not?  Speed limitations? etc etc.  Until then, no one can say it isn't truly overmodeled.

You've got it backwards here. It is up to you to prove that it is overmodelled if you claim so, not the other way around. HTC doesn't get their flight models out of thin air.

[Changeup]

Geezus....I get it...you love the Brewster but "its not as simple as that" is not a defense or answer...just saying

I have read more in the last day and a half about this aircraft than I care to.   I suggest you argue with the sites and sources that I read...not me.  I posted them, you read them.

Two internet (must be right, right? lol) sited some production of the 239...that sure could have been wrong.

No, fight radius is not turn radius.  Fight radius is the a/c area of influence to conduct combat effectively.  The brew's fight radius is smaller than say the 51 horizontally and vertically because the 51 is faster (read: E fighter).  However, should the 51 slow down and enter the Brew's fight radius and try to operate effectively...it might for two/three turns and one or two vertical movements....if it chooses to stay in that fight radius, it will die, lol.

Dive ability should not be proven IN GAME....that would create a false model therefore COMPLETELY RELEVENT.  You don't test something in a computer environment when a real environment once existed.  You take the real life environment and tell the software to act-like-that.  I am NO PROGRAMMER....after talking with several, that is how they say it is done, but they could be lying to me I suppose.

As I said, you don't get to argue with what I read about why the Brew was dropped, lol.  Now you're telling me what I read or that because I didn't read what you read, what you read is more important or more true than what I read???  That's just stupid and lacks any debate ability.

I don't have to prove anything...that's why its called an opinion.  You all think it is a fairly modeled a/c...I don't think all of its real characteristics have been incorporated into the game.  In as much as I make the claim that its overmodeled, to argue that point effectively, you need to provide some proof that it isn't.  WHat I have proved so far is that one dimension of its vertical performance has been shown...should its dive characteristics show up somewhere, from a credible source, I will STAND CORRECTED.  See, unlike a number of people on this board, I have NO ISSUE with admitting I'm wrong.  HTC has nothing to do with it...if they are modeling it based on their knowledge of the flight characteristics, they probably got them from public sources too.  I have searched a lot of sources and even ordered two books out of curiousity which is RIDICULOUS for me to spend time doing...however, there are enough good folks in this game, you included, that might benefit from my "wrongness" or "rightness".
If there is a n aeronautical engineering formula that details the reasons why the Brew wont compress, such as how Bernoulli's Law affects flight surfaces as speed increases over small or large surface areas, again, I will 100% say I was wrong.

Changeup

[Crash Orange]

No, fight radius is not turn radius.  Fight radius is the a/c area of influence to conduct combat effectively.  The brew's fight radius is smaller than say the 51 horizontally and vertically because the 51 is faster (read: E fighter).  However, should the 51 slow down and enter the Brew's fight radius and try to operate effectively...it might for two/three turns and one or two vertical movements....if it chooses to stay in that fight radius, it will die, lol.

Exactly. The pony driver has the absolutely ability to dictate the terms of the fight. If he hands that decision to the Brew pilot and allows him to fight the fight on the terms most favorable to his plane, the Brew is dangerous. Otherwise, it isn't. But that's a far cry from saying a Brewster can dominate or change the whole dynamics of a fight the way a 262 can.

[Wmaker]

Geezus....I get it...you love the Brewster but "its not as simple as that" is not a defense or answer...just saying

The thing is that all this has been gone over on this BBS before and I'm not going to waste my time replying to something which you can/should figure out yourself. Until you can produce something quatifyable evidence that there's something wrong with the Brewster, there's really nothing to comment.

[Changeup]

The thing is that all this has been gone over on this BBS before and I'm not going to waste my time replying to something which you can/should figure out yourself. Until you can produce something quatifyable evidence that there's something wrong with the Brewster, there's really nothing to comment.

That answer is no surprise.....but I will attempt to do that very thing.  In the absence of any proof you may have of the Brews ability to NOT compress noticeably in reality, not in online gameworld, I would say that this topic is a statemate to be decided later...no proof is no proof either way.

Changeup