Author Topic: Why the Hordes?  (Read 23567 times)

Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #165 on: January 04, 2011, 03:08:26 PM »
1.  On your first point, you are correct it is a game.  And with any GAME there is sportsmanship (or gamesmanship if you prefer the vernacular).  How you play a game is directly relevant to the game itself and those that play it.  

2.  As your or teaching comments.... there is more to teaching that just NOT saying something is wrong.  Why would you not teach your children that it is wrong to 'throw dynamite'?  By your illustration, what you have taught is to not take any personal responsibility and just go some where else.  You have let SOMEONE ELSE run you off from where you wanted to be.  I encounter this everyday.  People want safe communities, they want a drug and gang free neighborhood, but when authorities need information or assistance we get, "I don't want to get involved."  Well, you can't have it both ways.  Nothing in this life is free.  You must pay some cost either fiscal or personal, but the cost must be paid by someone.  Now am I really suggesting your confront every armed dynamite throwing lunatic?  No, my point is rather than 'just go somewhere else' be a part of fixing the problem.  Take some responsibility for the community in which you participate and correct things that are amiss.

3.  To your sportsmanship remark.... I refer back to point 1.  You were correct first when you said it is a game.  This is NOT war simulation.  If we played the game exactly as we do now, but changed the graphics to Mario's riding clouds and throwing mushrooms, would this still be a "War Simulation?"  IRL, war means death and destruction.  AH people do not really die.  IRL, wars are fought with limited resources to include, money, guns, people, ships, planes, tanks, and food.  When was the last time you sat in on an AH Budget planning session?  When was the last time that you went to the hanger in AH and found it EMPTY?   You were 100% correct when you said, "ITS A GAME".  Lets call a duck a duck... AH is a game.  There is nothing WAR about it.  And, because it is a game, there is gamesmanship.  We have all paid for the right to be here.  That makes it a community.  As a community, we set our own morals and standards.  If you teach those standards, then the community thrives.  Failure to teach standards turns us into mob and eventually the MOB will DIE OUT.  (ie... no more AH)

4.  You said you teach "HAVING FUN TRUMPS ALL".  Really?  Is that what we have become?  A group of "I only care about my own personal instant gratification?"  It is a game and it should be fun.  Just like football is a game and should be fun.  It would be fun for me to score a touchdown on every play.  To that end, I have decided that everytime I am about to be tackled, I am going to pull out a gun and shoot the opposing player -- now I can score every play!  Won't that be fun!  Yes, that is an extreme example; but, the point is made.  It is about fun, but it is not just about YOUR OWN satisfaction.

Clearly, you are set in your ways, and I don't expect anything I say here to make any major life altering decisions for you.  But I would encourage you to think about what has been posted here.  The attitudes you express go far beyond just being in AH.  I would submit that they are not only unhealthy for AH, but can be an unhealthy life philosophy.  Forget AH for a second.  Take a stand. Don't let 'dynamite guy' force you to go somewhere else.  If it is your pond to fish, then fish it.  If 'dynamite guy' blows up all the fish in that pond, where are you going to fish next week?  We all have a right to fish in the pond.  The key is to NOT let one person take all the fish.  We have to protect that pond so that we can all ALL continue to enjoy it.  That takes responsibility and it takes action of some sort.

and, that brings us back to Fugi's original post....   why not teach new players and squads to break up the monster horde?  Why not teach new players NOT to HO.  How much more fun would they have if they learned long term skills rather than short term self-gratification?  It is a matter of mindset NOT code changes.

With Respect,    :salute

Jeff

 :cheers:

i would like to respectfully disagree with some of the things you pointed out.

refering to the "dynamite guy", it looks to me as if you are implying that we simply take away his dynamite and don't let him fish in the pond anymore (correct me if i'm wrong). what we should rather do is point out that eventually the dynamite could blow up prematurely, meaning death. also tell him that the fish might get damaged by the blast, and he might not do it anymore, instead learn to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, and in return catch a fish that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.

on the topic of sportsmanship, i do believe it is needed in a game. i believe in a "fair fight". granted this is not always the case, as i always come across a 3 v 1 or a 5 v 1. however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades. or, if i get one of my control surfaces shot out, i don't run, as my foe shot me fair and square, so i keep fighting, because there is no actual threat to my life, and i will live to see another sortie. i avoid the HO, unless my foe opens up on me, in which case i fire back. if i get in a picking situation, i don't pick the guy who i can down in seconds, i pick the guy who will present a challenge to me (i.e Spit XVIs, P-51Ds).

THAT BEING SAID, if for instance i'm being chased by 4 or 5 cons, i'm going to ask my buddies to come help me out, and then i will fight a much more managable 1 or 2 v 1. i don't consider that being a bad sport, even though some will argue against that. in-game i risk my virtual life to save my wingmen, and i expect the same from them.

on the topic of having fun, i think you mistook what he intended to say. he and I teach our relatively young squad that the game is not about score or getting kills, but in fact it is about being able to virtually fly these birds, and fly with a sense of camraderie. what we are doing in this game is re-creating, in the best way possible, air combat durring WW2, which is very much a peice of our history. if we fly as friends, and as respectable players, we will have fun. it is not simply for personal satisfaction.

i agree completely with your statement that this game is in no way a simulation of war. i also agree that the way you play makes the game. i still believe the AH community is the best online gamming community there is, and if the community were anything like the people i have encountered on Xbox Live, i would have stopped subscribing a long time ago.

with regards,

Wildcat  :salute
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
The King of 'Cobras. 350th FG, Tunisia 2016

Air Traffic Controller (Air Warfare/Surface Warfare) 2nd Class, USS John C. Stennis CVN-74

Offline lulu

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #166 on: January 04, 2011, 03:25:00 PM »
damn ... not lunny? but FUNNY!

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Offline Wiley

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #167 on: January 04, 2011, 03:26:06 PM »
i would like to respectfully disagree with some of the things you pointed out.

refering to the "dynamite guy", it looks to me as if you are implying that we simply take away his dynamite and don't let him fish in the pond anymore (correct me if i'm wrong). what we should rather do is point out that eventually the dynamite could blow up prematurely, meaning death. also tell him that the fish might get damaged by the blast, and he might not do it anymore, instead learn to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, and in return catch a fish that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.

But I think you're missing a crucial point.  He is not interested in undamaged fish, he's not interested in learning to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, he's not interested in catching fish in a way that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.

He wants fish.  Dynamite gets him fish with the least amount of effort possible.  This is his desired outcome.  He has what he wants.  Anything else is irrelevant.

on the topic of sportsmanship, i do believe it is needed in a game.

And you are outnumbered in that belief at least 10 to 1 in an online game, IMO.  Sportsmanship is a great idea for the other side, in most peoples' minds.

on the topic of having fun, i think you mistook what he intended to say. he and I teach our relatively young squad that the game is not about score or getting kills, but in fact it is about being able to virtually fly these birds, and fly with a sense of camraderie. what we are doing in this game is re-creating, in the best way possible, air combat durring WW2, which is very much a peice of our history. if we fly as friends, and as respectable players, we will have fun. it is not simply for personal satisfaction.

Yup, that's why you fly.  A great deal of people in game have no interest in doing that.  They want to win the war, or fly around in the plane that gives them the best chance of success however they fly and shoot at people until they run out of ammo.  Their goals are not the same as yours, which results in vastly different gameplay from them.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline lulu

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #168 on: January 04, 2011, 03:30:49 PM »
"however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades."

That is not sportsmanship, because you know that soon as possible the poor plane would be shoot down by 300 other cons . So please let finish it :roflo


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Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #169 on: January 04, 2011, 03:35:16 PM »
But I think you're missing a crucial point.  He is not interested in undamaged fish, he's not interested in learning to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, he's not interested in catching fish in a way that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.

He wants fish.  Dynamite gets him fish with the least amount of effort possible.  This is his desired outcome.  He has what he wants.  Anything else is irrelevant.


i agree to this, however i do believe some of the newer fishermen who try this out can be convinced to do it the way i perscribed, even though the older, more stubborn fishermen might continue to do it there way. if that is the case, i will simply wear ear plugs and continue to fish. i have the right to fish in the pond, and i also have the right to attempt to show people how to do it my way. if they don't like it, they have the right to ignore me.

simple as that, IMO
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
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Air Traffic Controller (Air Warfare/Surface Warfare) 2nd Class, USS John C. Stennis CVN-74

Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #170 on: January 04, 2011, 03:39:02 PM »
"however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades."

That is not sportsmanship, because you know that soon as possible the poor plane would be shoot down by 300 other cons . So please let finish it :roflo


 :salute

i see your point of view, but typically an aircraft in that state is going down anyways, and before anyone flames me for this i'm implying that both control surfaces, be it 2 elevators or 2 ailerons, are shot out, because i've won fights many times with an elevator or aileron missing.

but back on topic, i will tend to call off any other con who is chasing the poor defenseless bird, telling them that it is already down, because in all likely hood, i've still scored the most hits, and they won't get the kill
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
The King of 'Cobras. 350th FG, Tunisia 2016

Air Traffic Controller (Air Warfare/Surface Warfare) 2nd Class, USS John C. Stennis CVN-74

Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #171 on: January 04, 2011, 03:46:16 PM »
Wiley, i don't know how long you have been playing this game and nothing i say is directed at you or anyone for that matter, but this Game was about Sportsmanship, and should be an emphasis again, but thats up to each individual person, to much of the game for many revolves around the importance of Killsİ Rankİ instead of just having fun and respecting other players, you see 2 or 3 friendlies on a Con, heck dont just dive in looking for a kill , you see a friendly with 3 cons on him, heck yea dive in ( that's what i do) try to save him who cares if i die i know im going to get a couple of them, planes are free, fun is 14.95 a month to me thou it's priceless  :salute
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Offline 68ZooM

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #172 on: January 04, 2011, 03:55:57 PM »
Wildcat1, i used to think about leaving certain injured planes alone, until i was flying a FW190-A8 half my right wing was shot off and i was still able to fly around ( wasnt easy thou) and pester fighters and kill one of three B24's coming into our CV after that i make sure there going down, might even have film of it I'll have to look
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Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #173 on: January 04, 2011, 04:17:33 PM »
Wildcat1, i used to think about leaving certain injured planes alone, until i was flying a FW190-A8 half my right wing was shot off and i was still able to fly around ( wasnt easy thou) and pester fighters and kill one of three B24's coming into our CV after that i make sure there going down, might even have film of it I'll have to look

 :confused: :lol

i was mainly pertaining to loss of control surfaces, as it is exremely hard to right your plane and land (tho i've done it once in my Wildcat). also, in German and Russian in-line a/c engines, loss of the radiator means that the engine will most certainly quit in a minute or two, that's why i leave those planes alone as well
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
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Air Traffic Controller (Air Warfare/Surface Warfare) 2nd Class, USS John C. Stennis CVN-74

Offline Wiley

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #174 on: January 04, 2011, 04:23:15 PM »
Wiley, i don't know how long you have been playing this game and nothing i say is directed at you or anyone for that matter, but this Game was about Sportsmanship, and should be an emphasis again, but thats up to each individual person, to much of the game for many revolves around the importance of Killsİ Rankİ instead of just having fun and respecting other players, you see 2 or 3 friendlies on a Con, heck dont just dive in looking for a kill , you see a friendly with 3 cons on him, heck yea dive in ( that's what i do) try to save him who cares if i die i know im going to get a couple of them, planes are free, fun is 14.95 a month to me thou it's priceless  :salute

Sportsmanship is great, I like it when I see it.  However, welcoming it is one thing.  Expecting it in an online game is folly.  Understand when I'm talking about this stuff, I'm not talking about what I do in game for the most part.  It's just observations I've seen playing a lot of online games, and online flight sims for around 3 years now.

I expect the worst possible behavior out of the other side, and I have my own set of rules for what's acceptable/unacceptable for myself.  Sometimes enemy behavior influences that.  If a guy tries a third attempted HO, or has just attempted HOs on every squaddie who's merged with him, it generally results in me HOing him if I'm in the wrong mood, sorry that's just how I feel.  Also, if a guy is the last one remaining after his buddies were shot down after starting something where they had advantage, I have no trouble ganging him to death.  To me, that's fair.  When I'm with my squad, I play fairly hard, and expect no quarter from the other side.

Personally, I shoot people until they're missing a wing or tail, or until they explode.  I've had too many wounded planes turn on me to let them go.  I don't feel bad for that, I believe anything worth shooting is worth shooting a lot.  One exception to this is if I go to bounce a smoker and see he's actually deadstick.  I'll usually let that pass and break off, though it's bitten me in the backside once or twice where I went past what I thought was a deadstick plane and the guy restarted his engine and shot me.

Wiley.
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Offline Vudu15

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #175 on: January 04, 2011, 04:36:09 PM »
You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

anyone and everyone is goin to play exactly how they want to play and 10 years of text in this forum isint goin to change that fact.
I say either give up or go down ina raging inferno. But you know what? it aint my 14.95 so you choose your path and Ill choose mine.


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Offline RedTop

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #176 on: January 04, 2011, 04:38:01 PM »
You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

anyone and everyone is goin to play exactly how they want to play and 10 years of text in this forum isint goin to change that fact.
I say either give up or go down ina raging inferno. But you know what? it aint my 14.95 so you choose your path and Ill choose mine.


Thanks for your rapt attention
Vudu15

And this sums up the entire thread!!!!!

You sir should get a medal!!!!!
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #177 on: January 04, 2011, 04:45:46 PM »
You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

True, but I think all that Fugitive is on about is actually taking them to the water.  Some will drink, some won't.  Some will defecate in the pool and call you a noob while laughing about having ruined the pool.  At least it's showing them the options and possibilities, and I have no problem with that.  I would just put the chance of success of changing most peoples' minds at about 0.01% or so.

Perhaps I'm just jaded, but based on what I've seen, people who start out with no concept of fair play rarely if ever seem to develop it over time.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #178 on: January 04, 2011, 05:30:40 PM »
Perhaps I'm just jaded, but based on what I've seen, people who start out with no concept of fair play rarely if ever seem to develop it over time.

I prefer to think of behavior in an economic sense.  Aces High is, after all, a zero-sum game - if you win, it means the other guy lost.  Because of that, you'll see behavior creep toward whatever results in the greatest success - killing the other guy while not dying yourself.  When someone acts "chivalrous," it puts him at a disadvantage to anyone who behaves just slightly more dastardly.  Let's say, for example, that one guy refuses to HO.  That's great, but this puts him at a distinct tactical disadvantage to anyone who willingly HOs, and smart (or dastardly) players will simply face shoot that player until he dies.

Someone else comes along who is willing to HO, and he brings a buddy with him.  Now he has the advantage.  This goes on and on, with players adopting more cutthroat and less "sportsmanlike" behavior where it increases the odds of killing without dying.  That's basic economics, and ultimately leads to the sort of chaotic, unsportsmanlike mess you find in the MA most of the time.  This may or may not be a bad thing given your point of view.

In the absence of rules - and in AH there really aren't many rules governing behavior beyond killshooter - this kind of cutthroat behavior flourishes.  Imagine a basketball game without refs, where players figure out that they can run or shove with impunity.  If the players don't really know each other, and there aren't any long term consequences to behaving that way, they'll probably adopt whatever tactics give them an advantage.  AH, being a fairly anonymous endeavor, reflects that.

TLDR:  Without enforceable rules, mayhem becomes the norm.  Revel in it or hate it, but that's just the way it goes.



Offline Melvin

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #179 on: January 04, 2011, 05:59:53 PM »
Looks like Oldman was the only one that may have seen some humor in my old timey duel challenge.

The rest of you nancies are waaaaay too high strung.

THAT'S what's wrong with this game.
See Rule #4