109K4 V Spit 14

[Changeup]

Bar:

I have been in a fight at 27K or higher one time in 3 years...and it was down to 20K in 3 about turns where the 14 becomes essentially a bit better than average.  The 14 shouldn't be perked because its perkiness value is never or very rarely utilized.  I don't think a lot of guys are going to up a Spit 14 to chase bombers at 25K because of the perk cost...why when you can up a 47M or a K4...lets face it...you don't have to worry about turn rates when hunting buffs...they aint going anywhere.

So, if it's real performance values are in altitude envelopes that are very very rarely utilized, why perk it?  No one will use it when other alternatives are available.  Think of it this way:  Something is only worth what someone will pay for it.  People aren't paying for Spit 14's very often so it must not be worth it.
 
Changeup

[R 105]

 I been flying the spit 14 in the off line arena for the purpose of this discussion. While it has great speed and good visibility and only the P-51s have better views. I still have problems with the high speed stalls in right hand turns. It don't recover well in a flat spin and it is still frail like all spits and easy to damage. I find I can't drive to the speed I can in a P-51D (576 mph) I also find that the Tempest will not dive as fast as a Pony ether. It pull itself out of a dive automatically at a certain speed. Which makes me wonder how it can catch a Pony.

 The 14 has a good gun package with a good ammo supply but it is a greasy bird upon landing like the F-4s are. I do what I do with the F-4 I turn off the engine as soon as I touch the runway. That gets rid of engine torque. White the ME109-K4 is a much harder plane to hit a target in it is by far the easier plane for me to fly and maneuver in and is way more forgiving than the 14. Also the 109-K4 will take much better damage than the 14. The k-4s motor runs a long time with an oil hit. As a perk plane I just don't see it in the 14. It is a ENY 5 plane at best in my view. I do not have a dog in this fight because I am not a Spit user I am a P-51 guy. As for over all Spitfires I like the 9 best of all them it is just fun to fly.

[waystin2]

Not sure of the K-4's durability, but it is very easy to tear one or both wings off of the 14 when at high speed or during high-g maneuvers.  As a side note to this, I have ripped both wings off of a 14 and continued to fly it for about 2 minutes.  It's kind of a slow barrel roll to the right, but the engine power will keep in the air for a while.

[Yenny]

K4 got mad compression though

[perdue3]

K4 owns, no competition.

[Ardy123]

K4 got mad compression though

lol... one can cause to a k4 to compress in level flight... seriously

[Yenny]

Naw man, have you seen me doing a split S 3k above the enemy, w/ chop throttle, skidding my rudder, trimming my elevator trying to place myself for a snap shot and reverse to stay on their six? that's tuff =/, I can do it easily in spit, f4us, ki. Only K4, I have a hard time. That's where compression effect the performance.

[Ardy123]

Naw man, have you seen me doing a split S 3k above the enemy, w/ chop throttle, skidding my rudder, trimming my elevator trying to place myself for a snap shot and reverse to stay on their six? that's tuff =/, I can do it easily in spit, f4us, ki. Only K4, I have a hard time. That's where compression effect the performance.

I would agree, the K4 is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more demanding than a spit in combat.

[Baumer]

Here's an alternative approach to the discussion I've been thinking about. After reading about ENY and the Perk System, plus talking with Hitech and Pyro I think I have a good understanding of what each one is intended to address. (Please feel free to correct either of these definitions)

1.) The Perk System- The Perk System is intended to keep specific, high performance aircraft usage (in the main arena's) close to historical percentages when the player population is evenly distributed across the three sides.

2.)The ENY System- The ENY System is intended to create a balanced playing field when the player population is NOT evenly distributed across the three sides.

So trying to compare one aircraft directly to another in terms of PERKS or ENY needs to address how the players would utilize each plane in both a balanced situation and an unbalanced situation.

For example, as I understand it (Old timers correct as necessary) when the C-Hog was introduced there was no perk system so it quickly became the dominate plane regardless of balanced sides or not. As some have described it, it was quickly a situation of, fly a C-Hog or expect to die quickly (this may be over stating it a bit).

As to the specific K-4 vs. Spit 14 merits, the preceding discussion is centered about specific traits or usage that go either for or against perking the Spit 14. I have not seen any forethought as to how the general player base might react to un-perking the Spit 14. In my opinion given its speed and climb abilities I could see it being used as a new tool for the hoard to attack reasonably close bases. It's bad enough when the hoard comes in NOE but at least you have the potential to see it launch early and climb before they get to the base. If the hoard can get to 10K in 2 minutes fly a sector and drop on the target (not giving defenders a chance to up and get alt) then the Spit 14 could theoretically be a big problem in the mains. Another reason I suspect the average AH pilot would use the Spit 14 over the K-4 is ammo. As I'm sure Snailman can point out (with a chart naturally), the vast majority of players are poor shots (relative to the top 10%). So the Spit would be the obvious choice for most over the K-4.

Then the last part of the discussion is why is the K-4 ENY so high. My theory is that looking at main arena usage, the K-4 is used predominately in either, stable fur-balls or for defense. In general, it is not used to steam-roll the low number side as an attacking fighter. And in my opinion that is because there's a small % of pilots how can actually shoot well enough with it to be truly effective. If someone really wanted to justify lowering the K-4 ENY they would have to show it's negative impact when the arena's are unbalanced numerically.

Well that turned out longer than expected! LOL <S>   

[Lusche]

I would agree, the K4 is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more demanding than a spit in combat.

And there is the problem. There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
In the MA combat environment, the 16 is a much more capable plane. The K4 has the taters, but is a much more stable gun platform than the 14. I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"

And still I'm wondering why of all planes only the perked 14 allegedly is flown only by pilots "not knowing how to use it." It's not that it doesn't happen with almost all other planes too. particularly the 16, which is known as "n00b" or "dweeb" ride, yet it's K/D is very close to the 14, which can't be flown by 2 weekers at all. And "it's a monster if a player really hows to handle it" - with that argument we would have to perk the K4 instantly.

[maddafinga]

And there is the problem. There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
In the MA combat environment, the 16 is a much more capable plane. The K4 has the taters, but is a much more stable gun platform than the 14. I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"

And still I'm wondering why of all planes only the perked 14 allegedly is flown only by pilots "not knowing how to use it." It's not that it doesn't happen with almost all other planes too. particularly the 16, which is known as "n00b" or "dweeb" ride, yet it's K/D is very close to the 14, which can't be flown by 2 weekers at all. And "it's a monster if a player really hows to handle it" - with that argument we would have to perk the K4 instantly.

I don't think very many people are arguing to keep the 14 perked.  I think most have said they wouldn't mind seeing it unperked.  I personally don't think there would be any difference in its frequency in the arenas.  The 16 is just too easy and capable a ride for people not to choose it over the 14.  There might be a few sorties in it, but then they'd go back to the 8s and 9s and 16s for the most part. 

[Reaper90]

In my opinion given its speed and climb abilities I could see it being used as a new tool for the hoard to attack reasonably close bases. It's bad enough when the hoard comes in NOE but at least you have the potential to see it launch early and climb before they get to the base. If the hoard can get to 10K in 2 minutes fly a sector and drop on the target (not giving defenders a chance to up and get alt) then the Spit 14 could theoretically be a big problem in the mains.

But really, isn't the only place the Spit 14 has a significant advantage over planes like the Spit 16 and Ki84 (both excellent climbers) at very high altitudes 20K-ish  and up? In the scenerio you depict, the Spit 14 would be no more of a threat than the Spit 16 and Ki84 as time to get to 10K or so is a marginal almost insignificant difference, IMHO. I suppose if the horde were attacking a 15K base, however..... 

As I see it, my dollar minus 98 cents (from a person who doesn't often fly any Spitfires, and won't even try a K4, the Spit 14's advantage is as an excellent very high alt dogfighter. Buff hunter maybe, but you won't catch me attacking 17's, 24's or 26's with a plane that fragile, not when a Ta152, Pony D or M Jug is available for no perkies. Down low it is not to be feared any moreso than a Pony or Typhoon.

[Oldman731]

There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.

So much so that it bears very little performance resemblance to any of the other spitfires.

- oldman (so...you can fly it without shame!)

[R 105]

 While flying the Spit 14 in the off line arena. I find I can not recover from a flat spin no mater what I do. All other Spitfires and all the German rides will. As will all US planes I tried. You can fly a P-51 like you stole it and it will stay together or recover from almost anything you do to it. I kill Bombers it it with ease. I can't do that in any Spit without being damaged or destroyed. Even if the Spit 14 was not a perk ride I would still take a Spit 16  P-51 or the 109-G2 G6 G14 or K-4 over it anytime. 

[Vinkman]

The Spit 14 is equal or slower at altitudes below 20K, to the Dora, P-51, Typh, and K4. and slower than the La7 below 8K.

I've never found the 14 to turn or handle as well as the 16 or any other SPit, which is really the advantage of a Spit. If a K4 or Pony dives away from a spit XIV, the Spit can't catch them. This is due to that the spit being speed limited in a dive because of that wing balooning issue that slows the plane and forces pull out in all SPit designs. for that reaason i'ts not a better BnZ plane than the other spits already available for no perks.

The only advantage of a Spit XIV over other spits is a higher top speed. But that speed isn't high enough to run down the planes that are already faster than a SpitXVI [pony, K4, Typh, Dora] So the advantage is not a very usable advantage.

I think this is why no one drive this bird, the perks aren't worth it, even though it's only 10 perks.

I'd vote for a no perk trial run.