P-61 Black Widow petition

[SmokinLoon]

I'm glad I have some good card playin' partners in these forums.  I was ready to lay down my list but my partner trumped the other team, I'll simply throw in some junk. 

The D520, He111, Pe-2, Tu-2, Ki43, Ki45, P40N, even the Swordfish, and at least 23 more aircraft all rate higher than the P61, imo.  I'm already disappointed that HTC is adding the B29, the P61 would rank right up there on that level of disappointment with the current gigantic gaps in the plane set AH currently has.

... and don't get me started on the gv's that could *easily* be added.  Stop and think of the dozens of more options we could have just by adding in variants of the M4 Sherman, M3 halftrack, SdKfz 251, and even the Panzer Mk III (wirby and Osty already exist).

So I will apologize and take back my comment about locking the threads, but P61 threads annoy simmers' crowd.    

[Karnak]

Machfly,

I was specifically avoiding mention of variants of aircraft we already have.  Keep in mind I am not mentioning things I think were less significant then the P-61, so no Ki-102, He162, B7A, Pe-8 or Farman F222.  I'll toss out some more airframes we don't have:

B6N "Jill"
Boomerang
D4Y "Judy"
D.520
Foker D.XXI
G3M "Nell"
Halifax
Hampden
Ki-21 "Sally"
Ki-45 "Nick"
Ki-48 "Lily"
Ki-49 "Helen"
MB-152
M.S.406
PB2Y Coranado
Potez 630/631
PV1 Ventura
PZL P.11
PZL P.37
Whitworth


I will also specify that I am not advocating adding all of these airframes to AH as there would be a lot of essential duplication.  There is very little difference in terms of effect on a scenario to choose between a G4M "Betty" and a Ki-21 "Sally" or a Ki-49 "Helen", likewise there is little effective difference between a Lancaster and a Halifax.

[MachFly]

Machfly,

I was specifically avoiding mention of variants of aircraft we already have.

Yeah I know it was a joke. I agree with your list BTW.

[Anaxogoras]

I have the sneaking suspicion that you have a certain fondness of Russian birds...

Meh, not really.  But they are severely underrepresented in AH, and we still can't run a good Eastern front scenario/FSO without throwing in lots of lend-lease aircraft to fill in gaps.

[Yeager]

How about not calling people anti-American just because they don't want every single imaginable fringe American aircraft added before the core aircraft of other nations get added?

what national "core aircraft" is missing?  

Oh sorry Karnak, jst bothered to read the follow on pages.  Still, not feeling the "core" in any of those.  All fringers to me (far as combat aircraft go), and the P61 just looks so damned cool.

[TequilaChaser]

that French MS406 would be a good fit also.. The French built them in large quantity, the Germans used them when they captured a good many of them and also turned some of them over to Finland

so it could play in multiple roles....... from early war through the late war era.....

After the armistice, some Morane 406s remained in service in the Vichy air force (where they were mainly used for training), and others were handed over by the Germans to Finland, which had received 30 aircraft in 1940. The 'Morko Moraani' was created in Finland by converting French Morane-Saulnier MS.406 and MS.410 fighters to accept captured Soviet Klimov M-105P engines. The M-105P was a development of the original Hispano-Suiza HS 12Y engine, and developed 200 hp (149 kw) more. A total of 41 were converted; the engines were supplied by Germany. Germany also supplied the new Mauser 20 mm cannon and oil cooler. The Morko remained in service until 1948.

Another foreign buyer was Switzerland, which, after having acquired two M.S.406s, built 82 aircraft on license (designated EFW-3800) as well as 207 of a subsequent home-developed version known as EFW-3801.

Specifications (Morane Saulnier MS.406)

Type: Single Seat Fighter

Design: Morane Saulnier

Manufacturer: Morane Saulnier, SNCASO, Dornier-Werke Switzerland

Powerplant: One 860 hp (642 kw) Hispano-Suiza 12Y 31 12-cylinder inverted Vee, liquid cooled, piston engine.

Performance: Maximum speed 302 mph (486 km/h) at 16,400 ft (5000 m); service ceiling 30,840 ft (9400 m).

Range: 497 miles (800 km) with internal fuel stores.

Weight: Empty 4,178 lbs (1895 kg) with a maximum take-off weight of 5,600 lbs (2540 kg).

Dimensions: Span 34 ft 10 in (10.65 m); length 2 ft 9 in (8.15 m); height 9 ft 3 in (2.82 m); wing area 172.16 sq ft (16.0 sq m).

Armament: One 20 mm Hispano Suiza HS-404 (or HS-59) gun (60 rounds) and two 7.5 mm (0.295 in) MAC-1934 guns (300 rounds each).

Variants: MS.406 (prototype and production).

Operators: France, Croatia, Turkey, Finland, Switzerland, Vichy France, Germany.

source: http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Morane%20Saulnier%20MS.406.htm

weblink to some other WWII aircraft of other countrys:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/2/other.htm

[Karnak]

what national "core aircraft" is missing?  

Oh sorry Karnak, jst bothered to read the follow on pages.  Still, not feeling the "core" in any of those.  All fringers to me (far as combat aircraft go), and the P61 just looks so damned cool.

"Core" aircraft would be:

He111
Il-4
Ki-43
Pe-2
S.M.79-II

Possibly the Tu-2 and Wellington might count as well.

[fbWldcat]

The Japanese, Russian and Italian planesets (misc. countries? ) need to be represented before any more American airraft are added.

[Anaxogoras]

"Core" aircraft would be:

He111
Il-4
Ki-43
Pe-2
S.M.79-II

Possibly the Tu-2 and Wellington might count as well.

Still have to add more Russian aircraft to have anything like a core, e.g. Yak-1 and Lagg-3 are essential.

[SlapShot]

dont we allready have the whirlwind?...or was there a plane named whirlwind aswell?

Your confusing the ... Whirblewind, which we do have, with the Whirlwind.

[Tazz69]

       I definitely  agree with the addition of the P-61. It was very important aircraft during the war.

[5PointOh]

I'm not quite sure I agree with you're opinion that these 30+ aircrafts had a larger role than the P-61A/B.

30 aircraft that had a larger role....ok....I'll limit myself to airframes we don't have:

A-26 1,355
Beaufighter5,564 in England, 365 in Australia
Defiant1,064
Do17Unknown but production ended in 40
Do2171730
H6K "Mavis"127-200 Sea Plane
H8K "Emily"112 Sea Plane
He1113498
He177~700
Hs129879
Il-45,256
Il-104,655 Production to 1955
J2M "Jack"480
Ju1881,100
Ki-43 "Oscar"5,751
Ki-44 "Tojo" 1,233
MeteorExact number unknown 50 estimated in WWII
MiG-33,322
PBY Catalina4,051 (estimated)
P1Y "Frances"1,098
Pe-211,400 all variants
SB-26,945
Skua192
SM.791,350
Sterling2,221 bomber versions, 160 Mk. V
TBD Devastator129
Tu-22,257 all variants to 48
Wellington11,461 all variants  
Whirlwind 112
Z.1007660


Those are 30 out of memory.  I can add quite a few more out of memory too.  Who knows how many I can add if I go to books as well.

Machfly,

I was specifically avoiding mention of variants of aircraft we already have.  Keep in mind I am not mentioning things I think were less significant then the P-61, so no Ki-102, He162, B7A, Pe-8 or Farman F222.  I'll toss out some more airframes we don't have:

B6N "Jill"
Boomerang
D4Y "Judy"2,038
D.520~900
Foker D.XXI~150
G3M "Nell"1,048
Halifax6,176
Hampden1,430
Ki-21 "Sally"2,064
Ki-45 "Nick" 1,698
Ki-48 "Lily"Ki-48-I: 557, Ki-48-II: 1,408
Ki-49 "Helen"819
MB-152Unknown
M.S.4061,176
PB2Y Coranado210 Sea Plane
Potez 630/631Unknown
PV1 VenturaUnknown
PZL P.11325
PZL P.37~120
Whitworth1,737


I will also specify that I am not advocating adding all of these airframes to AH as there would be a lot of essential duplication.  There is very little difference in terms of effect on a scenario to choose between a G4M "Betty" and a Ki-21 "Sally" or a Ki-49 "Helen", likewise there is little effective difference between a Lancaster and a Halifax.

I have to say that there are many of these aircraft in your list that I'd like to see added, but on the other hand there are just as many that would never make it out of the hanger, or IMO be a waste of HTCs resources.  Do I think the Beau or the He-111 belong in AH before the P-61A/B.  Yes.  Do I think some of the aircraft that you suggested impact on the WWII were less significant than the P-61; Yes.

I'd like to have the 61 for a multitude of reasons.  Namely the engineering side; the spoilerons, radar (which doesn't matter in AH), remote turrets and the overall size of the P-61 make it a favorite for me.  On a more personal note, it was the first aircraft I seen growing up at WPAFB, and I will always hold a fondness for the 61.

On a side note, I went back to the plane list BBS members compiled for HTC of planes that they'd like to see added.  P-61(17 votes) B-29(10 votes).  And the 61 never made it into the poll   Maybe HTC has something in mind for it.

[Anaxogoras]

Or maybe they don't see how a night-fighter would fit into the game?

[5PointOh]

Oh why I ought to....

[Karnak]

5PointOh,

Production numbers don't tell the whole story by any means.  The 167 H8Ks (your 112 number is for H8K2s) saw heavy use through the entire pacific war.  That makes it much more important than an aircraft that showed up late in the war in limited numbers.  The Do17 saw vastly more combat than the P-61.

I will not deny that the P-61 is a neat fighter and I have no problem with it being in the queue, I just think we need a few core aircraft, not that entire list by any means, before it.


Tazz69,

The P-61 wasn't even significant, let alone "very important."