flight SIM!

[kvuo75]

so why did HTC say no is it to real

the answer was on the first page of this thread.. the 4th reply down.


edit: awwrngway beat me to it

[hitech]

You are not asking for realism, you wish to make things more complicated for it's own sake. An argument could be made for manual super charger gear change but not for mixture control. When in combat, mixture goes forward. I.E. just pushing a button. I never used a mixture control until after I had my license.  Mixtures primary purpose is simply to extend range. We already have a engine management for range it's called RPM. What do you do in combat, hit WEP, I.E. full rpm.

Many planes simply used auto rich auto lean settings, in a super charged engine, mixture does not change with pressure, only with temperature changes, because the pressure is constant in the manifold.

The where we always try to draw the line is does it add fun to the game or does it simply add things that most people consider nothing more then a pain in the ass.

HiTech

[Beefcake]

If you want a total sim look into the Accu-sim series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCLMgLB9Qlo&feature=related

This is a video of the B17 doing the pre-flights and starting up.

[muzik]

You are not asking for realism, you wish to make things more complicated for it's own sake. An argument could be made for manual super charger gear change but not for mixture control. When in combat, mixture goes forward. I.E. just pushing a button. I never used a mixture control until after I had my license.  Mixtures primary purpose is simply to extend range. We already have a engine management for range it's called RPM. What do you do in combat, hit WEP, I.E. full rpm.

Many planes simply used auto rich auto lean settings, in a super charged engine, mixture does not change with pressure, only with temperature changes, because the pressure is constant in the manifold.

The where we always try to draw the line is does it add fun to the game or does it simply add things that most people consider nothing more then a pain in the ass.

HiTech

I understand that you dont have time to implement everything guys ask for and Im guessing this one is a doozy of a job. I also understand and agree that we dont want to run off the simple folk by making it too hard to understand. I have always hoped for the best for your company so I agree with that logic, but what you just said doesnt make any sense.

The "reality" = complicated, so yes we are (very much so) asking for realism. If you want to say we are asking for "complicated," go right ahead. Tom(ay)toes/tom(ah)toes, but it is not for the sake of. It's for the challenge.

And Im not here to argue the ins and outs of performance issues with you, but if you dont know what your doing in a high performance aircraft you will suffer a performance loss as a result of improper engine management however small it may be.

So what if you could implement this with default settings to easy mode and even make it difficult to find and change those settings to guarantee they are only changed intentionally.  What skin off of anyones nose is it if I chose to fly with advanced settings? As some of us suggested we dont need or want an advantage like the stall limiter/no limiter function. And it only makes me an easier target if I fail to use it properly.

What percentage of IL2 players do you think would come to AH and reject it because of what you consider a minor or a perceived lack of realism? I have run into a few on the net who bashed AH because of this perception. I dont say this to knock the your game at all. Some of those guys are just groupies who refuse to take a real look. Others were logical and gave props for the good points, but seemed to prefer the complexity. How can this idea not be worth it if it allowed you buck one of the few arguments used against AH and potentially steal customers from the competition?

As I said, I have always hoped for the best for AH, so it only makes sense that if you could make hard core and casual simmers happy in the same arena why not? We know you're not going to just drop everything and say ok to this, but can you even see the possibility for something like this if a miracle happened that left you with nothing to do?

[Anaxogoras]

What percentage of IL2 players do you think would come to AH and reject it because of what you consider a minor or a perceived lack of realism? I have run into a few on the net who bashed AH because of this perception. I dont say this to knock the your game at all. Some of those guys are just groupies who refuse to take a real look. Others were logical and gave props for the good points, but seemed to prefer the complexity. How can this idea not be worth it if it allowed you buck one of the few arguments used against AH and potentially steal customers from the competition?

Now that's an interesting argument.  I'm not sure anything will come of it, but I give you points for rhetorical excellence.  The Il-2 community is huge, and so the idea of tapping into their reservoir of players is a good one.

There are still other things that prevent a lot of Il-2 folks from trying AH.  Besides lack of engine management, the criticisms I've heard the most are:

main arena isn't like WW2
overly generous icons
inability to host your own coop or mini-arena
lack of aircraft outside of the 1944-45 ETO.

Ultimately, Aces High delivers its own experience that has its own strong points.  There's plenty of room for different flight sims that emphasize different things, and a majority here seem happy with engine management as it is.

[Guppy35]

You can have everything you asked for as long as you are willing to get up at 2AM for briefing, eat lousy food, sleep in possibly a moldy tent in the jungle, or desert.  Not everyone went to the ETO.  You'll be expected to fly the mission you are given, in the plane you are assigned, which might not be the one you dreamed of flying.  And if you get shot down and killed, you can no longer play the game.

Oh, and you have to sit in a freezer, sucking on oxygen, wrapped in 3 layers of clothes and you can't go to the bathroom until the mission is over.  No alcohol in the cockpit either and having a significant other bring warm food to you is forbidden.

Sounds fair.

btW as a new player you will be given one of the older, worn out planes.  Only vets get new planes with new engines.  Newbies have to survive with the hand me downs.

<shuffles through papers>  Ahh, here is your assignment.  You are a Japanese Val pilot, stationed on Rabaul in 1943.  Food has been pretty much cut off, and rumor has it that some troops are eating captured POWs.  Allied air supremacy has been assured and your life expectancy, should your rebuilt Val get into the air, is about 20 minutes.

Good luck.  We hope you enjoy the new, realistic Aces High.  Engine management isn't hard on a Val, and you don't have to worry about raising the gear 

[muzik]

You can have everything you asked for as long as you are willing to get up at 2AM for briefing, eat lousy food, sleep in possibly a moldy tent in the jungle, or desert.  Not everyone went to the ETO.  You'll be expected to fly the mission you are given, in the plane you are assigned, which might not be the one you dreamed of flying.  And if you get shot down and killed, you can no longer play the game.

Oh, and you have to sit in a freezer, sucking on oxygen, wrapped in 3 layers of clothes and you can't go to the bathroom until the mission is over.  No alcohol in the cockpit either and having a significant other bring warm food to you is forbidden.

Sounds fair.

btW as a new player you will be given one of the older, worn out planes.  Only vets get new planes with new engines.  Newbies have to survive with the hand me downs.

<shuffles through papers>  Ahh, here is your assignment.  You are a Japanese Val pilot, stationed on Rabaul in 1943.  Food has been pretty much cut off, and rumor has it that some troops are eating captured POWs.  Allied air supremacy has been assured and your life expectancy, should your rebuilt Val get into the air, is about 20 minutes.

Good luck.  We hope you enjoy the new, realistic Aces High.  Engine management isn't hard on a Val, and you don't have to worry about raising the gear 

Dude, please dont tease me that way! Its too cruel. Ive been waiting for someone to tell me how to get to Fantasy Island or the StarTrek Next Gen. holodeck for years. I'll pay. You can have my left nut too! JUST GIVE IT TO ME NOW!

Pfft some of us dont live in fear of such things!

[Anaxogoras]

That was very entertaining Corky.  I'm not sure what your argument is, but I had a good chuckle.

[hitech]

muzik: What do you believe the net effect of adding Mixture would be?

I have heard you argument that complexity and realism are the same thing and people trying to argue the point that they want things as real as possible. They are not the same thing.

Adding mixture control would only have effects on the range of the aircraft. When in a fight it has 0 effect and adding it would actually make things more difficult then in real life. Most planes with one hand you can put 3 levers forward in one motion. I.E. similar to what our wep key does, puts all forward. You would argue that it should be 3 different keys because it is more "realistic" but it actually adds complexity that does not exist in a real aircraft. There are so many things that are harder to do in a sim, then when flying for real. The net effect is that work load is higher in the sim then in the real thing.

On your IL2 argument you make a classic mistake of think only gain and not loss, how many people would not play do to the added complexity?

Do you really wish to wait 10 - 20 mins on the ground before flying each flight? Do you really wish to fly for many hours before engaging the enemy? If you answer no to any question then you really don't want everything to be realistic but only the things YOU wish. And hence the argument of wanting everything as real as can be falls apart ,and you are left with does the realism make it more or less fun for the most people.

HiTech

[Anaxogoras]

Playing devil's advocate here...

I don't think he's asking to wait 10-20 minutes on the ground before each flight.  That's a silly way to read it.

Some of the Il-2 mods have added engine warm up times, but almost no one uses them.  For the most part, you turn on your engine and go, just like AH.

Do you really wish to wait 10 - 20 mins on the ground before flying each flight? Do you really wish to fly for many hours before engaging the enemy? If you answer no to any question then you really don't want everything to be realistic but only the things YOU wish. And hence the argument of wanting everything as real as can be falls apart ,and you are left with does the realism make it more or less fun for the most people.

I really don't see the logic of this argument.  Wanting more engine management isn't the same thing as wanting things to be as real as they can be.  Everyone has their own place where they drawn the line between fun and realism, including you Hitech.  It's always selective realism, no matter how you do it.
---------

Anyway, it took me a long time, but I do agree that there's no reason for AH to change here.  How things are now seems very successful, and there are plenty of other games to play when I want to push more buttons.

[hitech]

I really don't see the logic of this argument.  Wanting more engine management isn't the same thing as wanting things to be as real as they can be.  Everyone has their own place where they drawn the line between fun and realism, including you Hitech.  It's always selective realism, no matter how you do it.

I agree Anax, but using the argument I want more engine management because it more real like  saying as he did

The "reality" = complicated, so yes we are (very much so) asking for realism. If you want to say we are asking for "complicated," go right ahead. Tom(ay)toes/tom(ah)toes, but it is not for the sake of. It's for the challenge.

He is using the classic argument I want something because it is more real. And all I am saying is that this is a completely invalid argument when it comes to game design. I could very quickly add mixture control to the sim, similar to IL2, but don't think that it would be / is  accurate or real. It simply would be press key, watch gauge, improve range. To make it accurate many other very complex things would need to be added. And most are not possible to find good information on.

2nd Real = complicated is not always true. Many time you can make something less real by adding complexity. It all depends on what you are trying to simulate. The simple fact that you would have to use 2 keys vs a lever makes it more complex then the real thing.


HiTech

[Anaxogoras]

You're right that "more real" isn't an argument.  The trouble is that because there's a big difference in playable game mechanics versus a real war, some things that are "realistic" can have surprising consequences.  The whole engine warm-up procedure is a good example of that.  There was a server that wanted to encourage people to die less by having the engines start cold.  Well, they made the engines cold, and suddenly the rate of suicide-vulch attacks dramatically increased because the temptation to shoot an aircraft warming on the ground was just too great...AAA be damned!

I've flown Il-2 a bit and mixture is a feature of engine management that I pay very little attention to.  Mostly it's "I'm at 12,000ft and my rpms are slowing," adjust the mixture with a button-push and it's back to normal.

The one thing that I do pay close attention to is heat, because cooling causes drag, which decreases performance.  The airspeed difference between radiator open or closed seems to be very large in some aircraft.

[Mirage]

I agree with Hitech on this, Mixture is to insignificant to add to the game as it would take up buttons on the key board that can be used for things like being able to open the canopy, or locking the tail wheel without pulling back on the stick 

[hitech]

I've flown Il-2 a bit and mixture is a feature of engine management that I pay very little attention to.  Mostly it's "I'm at 12,000ft and my rpms are slowing," adjust the mixture with a button-push and it's back to normal.

Why would RPM slow on a constant speed prop due to lean mixture?

HiTech

[Silat]

That was very entertaining Corky.  I'm not sure what your argument is, but I had a good chuckle.

The argument is, "You want realism? Well heres your realism."