Author Topic: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-  (Read 2536 times)

Offline grizz441

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 09:41:56 PM »
Nonsense. Harder town capture makes brute force more necessary and successful. Thirty pairs of eyes make it a lot easier to catch that one little yellow-roofed house that's up.

The reasons for hordes has been discussed here as nauseam and it has nothing to do with the white flag mechanism. Ditto for side balancing. If you think 100% town down captures would do the slightest thing to fix the utterly broken side balancing mechanism, you're dreaming. Side balancing is broken in part because ENY is designed so that it would work for a 2-way war but doesn't work at all for a 3-way war where a side can be outnumbered more than 2-1 across the board with no one having ENY issues. But the main reason side balancing is broken is that people apparently want it broken. Why else do we so often see one side (nits seem to be the worst for this, but all sides do it) decamping for the other LW arena en masse leaving a massive imbalance in both arenas? Plainly they want it that way.

That being said, I agree 50% is too easy. It has nothing to do with style of play, "Xbawks" or otherwise, though, and everything to do with correct balance between offense and defense. I think 80% might be about right.

This

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 09:52:19 PM »
Tie the percentage to the number of enemy with in the radar circle.

The higher the enemy count, the higher the percentage of town that has to be down for the white flag to fly. This will add the "cloud of war" back in as you are not sure how many people are in the circle, and it might help lower the horde as the smaller the horde the easier the capture.

Offline BigR

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 11:01:08 PM »
Localized ENY...been saying it for YEARS....but ultimately it comes down with the mentality of most people in this game. No one wants a fight. They want everything to come easy. When hordes experience resistance they just pick up and move to another base. ...And on the other hand, when a particular country is being overrun, instead of hunkering down and playing tenacious D, they leave the arena in mass numbers so they can have numbers in the other one. All countries are equally guilty of this behavior.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 11:17:22 PM »
Nonsense. Harder town capture makes brute force more necessary and successful. Thirty pairs of eyes make it a lot easier to catch that one little yellow-roofed house that's up.

The reasons for hordes has been discussed here as nauseam and it has nothing to do with the white flag mechanism. Ditto for side balancing. If you think 100% town down captures would do the slightest thing to fix the utterly broken side balancing mechanism, you're dreaming. Side balancing is broken in part because ENY is designed so that it would work for a 2-way war but doesn't work at all for a 3-way war where a side can be outnumbered more than 2-1 across the board with no one having ENY issues. But the main reason side balancing is broken is that people apparently want it broken. Why else do we so often see one side (nits seem to be the worst for this, but all sides do it) decamping for the other LW arena en masse leaving a massive imbalance in both arenas? Plainly they want it that way.

That being said, I agree 50% is too easy. It has nothing to do with style of play, "Xbawks" or otherwise, though, and everything to do with correct balance between offense and defense. I think 80% might be about right.

Claiming that brute force is needed more so (and is more successful???) when the towns were at 100% and no white flag is an obvious knee jerk assumption and is a logical explanation, but the fact remains that there are far more hordes now than there were prior to the 50%/white flag settings.  A bit of reverse psychology, I know.  But think of it this way: with the town needing more attention, the 20-30 guys that made the horde were split, not all of them were in vulch mode.  I'd say at least an equal number of them were involved in dealing with the town.  With the 50% town/white flag only a few heavy attack aircraft are needed to deal with the town.  So in effect there are more people in vulch mode and fewer people dealing with the town.  If the 100% town/no flag required an even larger horde then why did we not experience such events on a consistent basis (like we do now) when those settings were in place?  It is real simple: *points above* as well as the defenders had more time to respond from another base, it takes far less time and effort to capture a town now.  The smaller groups of players attempting to capture a town are far and few between (as stated earlier one would think that the less requirements would equal smaller bands of players capturing towns but it isn't so) and even less so now, the 20-30 man hordes rule the show.        

FWIW, I'm not the one who brought up the ENY or side balancing issues.  That has never really been an issue with me, I fly aircraft from all across the ENY scale without hesitation.

The white flag notification is still, imo, a drag on the fog of war.  It is simple too easy.    
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Offline grizz441

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 11:20:57 PM »
Claiming that brute force is needed more so (and is more successful???) when the towns were at 100% and no white flag is an obvious knee jerk assumption and is a logical explanation, but the fact remains that there are far more hordes now than there were prior to the 50%/white flag settings.

Oh yeah? Says who?

Offline Lusche

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 11:43:03 PM »
I won't comment at this moment on the actual difficulty of capturing a base now & then, or how the percentage should be adjusted. But just for your information, this is how the various changes had influence the rate of base captures in the LW MA:



Number was derived by dividing total time played by all "active players" during a tour divided by the total number of recorded base captures.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:45:38 PM by Lusche »
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Offline LLogann

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 11:45:03 PM »
OMG Lusche........   So tell us, what are you                       telling us?   :uhoh















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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2011, 08:36:27 AM »
I too am curious to what he wants those numbers to say? Everyone knows that both the author and reader of such figures can make the numbers say what they want to.   ;)


Tour 126 (July 2010) = New Maps (towns, fields, etc)

Tour 131 (Dec 13th, 2010) = new capture settings (50% and white flag)

As his charts shows, it took over 70 man hours to capture the new fields once they first arrived in the servers (%100 and no white flag), then draw your own conclusions from there.  Once tour 131 comes around, the number of man hours it took to capture a field dropped 20 hours and the 50%/white flag settings started halfway through the month.  In tour 132 (Jan 2011), it shows that it took almost half as many man hours to capture a field as compared to the 100%/no flag.  Point being... it takes half as much effort (and the word "effort" can be translated into a whole gaggle of meanings) to capture a field.  Or maybe the author wanted those numbers to say something else?  ;)    
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:59:20 AM by SmokinLoon »
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Offline Dadsguns

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2011, 08:38:48 AM »
They look like cute bunny ears to me.......  :neener:

 ;)


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Offline Lusche

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2011, 08:49:20 AM »
I too am curious to what he wants those numbers to say? Everyone knows that both the author and reader of such figures can make the numbers say what they want to.   ;)

If I wanted to say more than just showing the amount of effort it took to get a base capture over the years in the LWMA, I would have done so. And yes, every reader can interpret the numbers as he wants to. ;)

(The 50% rule & flag was established in tour 131)
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Offline falcon23

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 09:32:59 AM »
NOw lusche,superimpose the above numbers over when the map rotations started..that would be interesting.. :salute

 MY gut feeling is about 132 or so??It definetly started dropping,I believe due to the maps being rotated so much and people lost interest in taking bases..
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:34:40 AM by falcon23 »

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 12:04:59 PM »
NOw lusche,superimpose the above numbers over when the map rotations started..that would be interesting.. :salute

 MY gut feeling is about 132 or so??It definetly started dropping,I believe due to the maps being rotated so much and people lost interest in taking bases..

Um.. actually... as he has it posted, more bases were taken per man hour, not less.  Assuming that the number of players did not change much that means MORE bases were taken, not less.  That means taking bases became more of a focal point, not less.  Also, maps are not being rotated as much, but servers players are being shuffled from one server to the next.  The larger the map, the longer it stays up.  Remember how that odd ball map (forgot the name) was the same for the off hours server for 3 weeks???
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Offline shiv

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 12:28:06 PM »
Um.. actually... as he has it posted, more bases were taken per man hour, not less.  Assuming that the number of players did not change much that means MORE bases were taken, not less.  That means taking bases became more of a focal point, not less.  Also, maps are not being rotated as much, but servers players are being shuffled from one server to the next.  The larger the map, the longer it stays up.  Remember how that odd ball map (forgot the name) was the same for the off hours server for 3 weeks???

I read it as it took more man hours to take a base starting with tour 126, then it dropped back down after the 50% rule.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2011, 12:42:05 PM »
Localized ENY...been saying it for YEARS....but ultimately it comes down with the mentality of most people in this game. No one wants a fight. They want everything to come easy. When hordes experience resistance they just pick up and move to another base. ...And on the other hand, when a particular country is being overrun, instead of hunkering down and playing tenacious D, they leave the arena in mass numbers so they can have numbers in the other one. All countries are equally guilty of this behavior.

Localized ENY will FORCIBLY limit the numbers of players in an area. HTC doesn't want to forcibly limit people (fuel can't be pork all the way down any more), they usually leave an "out". By tying the difficulty of the capture of a base to the numbers in the dar circle it makes it harder for a horde to capture but it doesn't take away the option of a smaller forces capturing a base.

Um.. actually... as he has it posted, more bases were taken per man hour, not less.  Assuming that the number of players did not change much that means MORE bases were taken, not less.  That means taking bases became more of a focal point, not less.  Also, maps are not being rotated as much, but servers players are being shuffled from one server to the next.  The larger the map, the longer it stays up.  Remember how that odd ball map (forgot the name) was the same for the off hours server for 3 weeks???

It looks to me that there was increase in man hours to take a base in tours 127 and 130, but why? It could mean that interest in taking bases went up and there was more people playing in response to a change HTC made.

Offline Lusche

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Re: The White Flag and the %50 Thing-
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 12:52:58 PM »
It looks to me that there was increase in man hours to take a base in tours 127 and 130, but why? It could mean that interest in taking bases went up and there was more people playing in response to a change HTC made.

because in tour 126 we got the new towns. Base captures suddenly were much harder, due to having about double the buildings and the difficulty in spotting any remaining non-destroyed ones. Thus the rate of captures per played hour went down. In tour 130 we got the new arena format, which meant you didn't have a large map with 60 player and another one with 10 player at off hours anymore, significantly increasing the chance of running into someone defending that base.
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