WW1 AI

[Anaxogoras]

Hmmm dead arena??? lets see if we take away all the WWII planes but 4 and eliminate bombers, tanks, and boats and ONLY have furballs how active would WWII be???  No just give the WWI guys some love and see the numbers climb, some new fighters, some bombing objectives and some 2 seaters to carry the bombs etc it has all been said but PLEASE don't call the WWI area dead because it is unfair.

You can't build a WW1 arena on the model of WW2.  Until the last few months of the war, tanks played a very small part in the combat, and the Central Powers only built a few dozen of them.  Their design philosophy was infantry support and the infiltration of enemy positions, not the destruction of other tanks (more comparable to a light armored vehicle).  I don't know what kind of role you think boats are supposed to play.

[CptTrips]

I don't think AI is a low bar to aspire to, if it had the random aspects of say RB3D it could be quite an immersive online game, the work has already been done for combat tour seems a shame to not experiment with some of it on a small scale in the WW1 arena. I have seen a few guys saying they are from Dawn of Aces and are giving it a go.

Sorry, I was unclear. 

I meant that merely improving upon whats there is a low bar to aspire to.  As in it wouldn't be hard to to that.

,
Wab

[CptTrips]

You can't build a WW1 arena on the model of WW2.  Until the last few months of the war, tanks played a very small part in the combat, and the Central Powers only built a few dozen of them.  Their design philosophy was infantry support and the infiltration of enemy positions, not the destruction of other tanks (more comparable to a light armored vehicle).  I don't know what kind of role you think boats are supposed to play.

Did P51 fighting P51 fighting P51 have much of a role in WWII?

For an MA vs SCenario, some realism can be sacrificed for fun game-play.


Wab

[Anaxogoras]

Of course, and that's why I did not object to the idea of more bomber aircraft and targets for them to bomb, even though aerial bombing was a distraction compared to the role of artillery spotting.

Have you looked at the tanks from WW1?  You could put two of them 100ft apart and I'm not sure either would decisively destroy the other one.

[Tinribs]

Its all very strange,Ive been a subscriber to ah2 for a few years now and to my recollection there was never a big shout on the forums for ww1 gameplay far more for the usual stuff (we all know what the usual stuff is) and yet along come the powers at be and amidst much flag waving present us with the ww1 duelling arena.
A year or so has passed since then and nothing has changed,its exactly the same in every respect,even the obvious flaws in the flight models are still there.
Those of us that frequent the arena on a regular basis keep on starting threads such as this in the forums, some with great ideas for improvement with very little effort required on htc`s part all with the same result THEY ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED.
What was the point of the ww1 arena ? was it some sort of tax dodge ? I cannot understand why anyone would spend a considerable amount of time to create something and then just abandon it in this way.

frustrated as hell,
shotdown

[CptTrips]

Have you looked at the tanks from WW1?  You could put two of them 100ft apart and I'm not sure either would decisively destroy the other one.

Well, they might by accident.    I dunno.  Those tracks look awfully exposed.  They seem they'd be pretty easy to blow a link out if hit.

They can certainly take pot shots at the troop trucks. Roll onto a command post and take out some sand bagged gun positions if they are lucky.  Maybe roll onto the adjacent airfield and start taking pops at canvas and wood hangars.

But yes, they are no Panther.  

Wab

[pervert]

Its all very strange,Ive been a subscriber to ah2 for a few years now and to my recollection there was never a big shout on the forums for ww1 gameplay far more for the usual stuff (we all know what the usual stuff is) and yet along come the powers at be and amidst much flag waving present us with the ww1 duelling arena.
A year or so has passed since then and nothing has changed,its exactly the same in every respect,even the obvious flaws in the flight models are still there.
Those of us that frequent the arena on a regular basis keep on starting threads such as this in the forums, some with great ideas for improvement with very little effort required on htc`s part all with the same result THEY ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED.
What was the point of the ww1 arena ? was it some sort of tax dodge ? I cannot understand why anyone would spend a considerable amount of time to create something and then just abandon it in this way.

frustrated as hell,
shotdown

Maybe you know more, but I'm certaintely not qualifyed in any way to compare a flight model to the real thing. Whats up with the modelling? The only obvious thing about camel is it seems to take the same amount of time to roll to eithier side? Torque should make it go quicker in the direction the engine spins? I've tried switching off auto trim etc but to no avail.

As far as fighting goes I can still win 1v1s in an F1 against the good dr1 sticks, it just takes a lot longer  I don't think its as bad as everyone perceives it to be tbh.

[LLogann]

Flaws?

Heck, maybe we should play a game that is run by a real pilot then?   

[pervert]

The problem with AI in AH is that it is crap.  I tried a bunch of offline missions made by Ranger and others, and although many were ingenious and creative, the AI was still crap.  Even the worst AI from boxed flight sims is still better than the AI in AH.

So, on that note, I don't know how AI would help the WW1 arena.

I don't bother with the AH WW1 arena because RoF has so much more to offer for WW1 air combat, i.e. the Spad 13, SE5a, Fokker D.VIIF (BMW engine), and even the lawnmower aircraft like the DH2 and Fokker E.III are a heck of a lot of fun.  I enjoy the mission rotations that "force" people into crates they might not be familiar with because sampling the different time periods of the air-war is like a plate of delicious hors d'oevres.  Air combat that is always the same matchup, e.g. Camel vs. Dr1, or worse, Dr1 vs Dr1, won't hold the interest of many people.

AH also needs a separate dispersion model for the WW1 machine guns.  From what I can see with the .target feature, there's no dispersion difference between the WW1 crates and WW2 aircraft with fuselage mounted machine guns.  Am I crazy?  Is there a difference?

Anyway, wabbit has it right.  A WW1 arena needs a lot more content before it will be successful.  What's there now is a recipe for low attendance.

I would recommend:

1) Central Powers vs Entente format
2) Flight model review for the Dr1 and Camel (the Camel's speed matches a prototype that was a testbed for different engines, the F1/3, not a production model; the Dr1 should be slower than the Camel)
3) Dispersion review (see Leon Bennett's Gunning for the Red Baron)
4) Content like balloons, artillery, etc.
5) At a minimum, the addition of the SE5a, Spad13, Fokker D.VIIF, and a German two seater like the Halberstadt Cl.II (or, since AH is all about late-war, maybe a Cl.IV).  The Albatros D.Va might be considered if the Camel and Dr1 are appropriately slowed down.
6) Give two-seaters the opportunity to spot artillery like they could do in Dawn of Aces.

Then you'd have a WW1 arena.

The flight modelling where did you find this information?

The spad I'd love   and the idea of germans vs allies. Like I said above would the average MA player be that hard to model in AI?

[Anaxogoras]

Have a look here (from J.M. Bruce):



F.1/3 was a prototype, but many authors and books use that column when they publish performance data for the Camel.  B2312 was a production model, with a production grade Clerget 9b manufactured by Ruston Proctor.  Other production models that were tested had similarly disappointing performance.

And the Dr.1:


The 115mph that it does in AH is a repetition of an error found in many books, unless you think Dr1s were flying around with 145hp Oberusals.  And the 110hp Oberusal never produced as much power as the 110hp Le Rhone.

----------------

Edit:

I also find it suspicious that I cannot put the Camel into a spin.  The most I can do is to get it to fall flat like a leaf, which is just bizarre.  RoF is better in this respect, but there are ways that AH is better, i.e. the Camel's poor rudder authority, and the necessity of left rudder in both left and right turns.

[Delirium]

but PLEASE don't call the WWI area dead because it is unfair.

Like a bad colonoscopy, the truth hurts. All I said was if they are going to go through the work to create a 'Tour of Duty' for a dead arena called WWI, HTC should also do it for what makes the company money; the WWII environment.

[pervert]

Interesting, the big man seen this gav?

Regards the F1 FM I find it a little bland in comparison to the DR1, I can eaily outroll an F1 or D7 using snap stall rolls in a DR1, when I try this in the F1 all I get is a shudder a big loss of speed and well no roll  But that may well just be the way it was  would like to hear Hitech's opinion on this  .

[Anaxogoras]

I have no idea whether HT has seen that data or not.

As for roll rates, I only have a highschool physics understanding of torque.  With the placement of the Dr1's ailerons way above the roll axis, I would expect it to roll poorly.  Snap rolls are something different, however.

Have you tried snap rolls without using combat trim?  These aircraft fly very differently if you leave them untrimmed, i.e. if you fly them as they were flown (except the SE5).  But I agree that the AH Camel just mushes through a lot of maneuvers, whereas the historical aircraft was described with words like "firecracker" and "buzzing hornet."

[Tinribs]

Interesting, the big man seen this gav?

Regards the F1 FM I find it a little bland in comparison to the DR1, I can eaily outroll an F1 or D7 using snap stall rolls in a DR1, when I try this in the F1 all I get is a shudder a big loss of speed and well no roll  But that may well just be the way it was  would like to hear Hitech's opinion on this  .

would like to hear hitecs opinion on anything to do with ww1.

[Anaxogoras]

Pervert, I just tested it out, and it is easier to get the Camel to snap roll if you leave combat trim off.  Try it out and tell me if you get the same result.