The top 10 reasons the allies won the Rumble 2001

[Hristo]

Wmaker, I can only thank you for the responsibility you took there yesterday. With no FL experience and being notified 60 minutes before the start, having to work with walk-ons is tough job for any flight leader. You did well enough for me at the moment you accepted the task.

Thanks, old friend. I hope to meet you more in virtual skies. <S>

Seems Axis in Rumble experienced 1944-45 shortage of pilots. Fresh recruits provided the numbers, but lacked that tiny edge in combat. concerning this, I think we did good job in the Rumble. By watching Sancho's films in my sector, I don't think Spits were the main reason for our demise. Just a mix of poor planning, last minute roster changes and lack of old hands on our side. We looked good, we lacked Experten to do the job. There.

See the films at:
 http://www.jump.net/~cs3/films/rumble-sancho.zip

[edited]
Creamo, I might even agree with you on some points.  

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]

[skernsk]

Wmaker...you were in a tough position there...I would not have wanted to take yer spot.  It's bad enough just getting prepped and flying the frame let alone doing all that B.S.

[StSanta]

Everyone with a brain knows the allies won for one reason only:

I was in Sweden and couldn't attend.

I wouldn't even call it a victory since I wasn't in.

[Nashwan]

Sunbird, that's pretty much what I said, and I'm glad to see you've changed from the position that the Spit IX didn't see action until the end of 42.
The Spit IXs didn't participate in the action around Dieppe, they covered a raid by the first B-17 squadrons on Luftwaffe airfields. The Luft didn't intercept the raid.

[janneh]

Originally posted by Zigrat:

2) Planesets. I'm not arguing the flight models, because i think they are accurate. But the fact is, that since Nash had the takeoffs set to 10,000 ft. the engagement altitude in all three fights was well over 20,000 ft. This gives a heavy advantage to the allies, who in frame 1 in my cage utilized spitfire F.IX and the P47-d11, both planes whoch outclimb, outgun, and outturn outgun the 109-g2 and 190 a5 at those altitudes (20-25000 ft). I personally dont think the D11 should have been included in the first frame, its a early '44 plane not a mid '42 one.

Hi zigrat.
I must disagree with above.
Perhaps D-11 can climb at 25k alts, but the fact is, that when entered to ring (and was climbing with wep all the way from field) alt was about 13k. It takes forever to climb jug to 20k.

EDIT:
 

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: janneh ]

[Pongo]

I hope this goes away quickly and never comes back.
The demise of any recognisable LW contigent that would have the skills to win one of these things is complete. Why give the more preditory and mean spirted authors of that demise a forum to strut about it.
So much work. For so much angst. zero chance of a good fight.

[Thunder]

I have to honestly addmit that thought the outcome would be just the opposite. I fact for the last two tours even though I fly with a P-47 squadron most of my time has been dedicated to learning how to fly the ME-109 and specifically the G2. I have learned to appriciate its capabilities and it has been a transition for me to learn its strengths. I go into the training arena more than the MA to practice. Now some comments on the Rumble:

I can only comment on Cage 5 specifically.

• without a slight on ANY pilot I beleive we had a slight tallent advantage.
• From a strategy point of view we had 6 P-47D-11s and 5 Spit IX's enter.
• our plan was to have 1/2 of the Jugs go left and half go right after entering the cage and hug the wall and grab.
• the spits were to go to the center and when the enemy was sighted to engage them and pull them down.
• the jugs were to cloose and attack hopefully from above.
• all three frames the enemy came in as a big mass.
• the axis had some excellent pilots in there ranks but I beleive that as some were not used to flying with each other and they got caught in drag and bags or got seperated from wingman or had none.
• when numbers grew favoring the allied pilots they soon could numerically take advantage of the better pilots.
• When they entered the main cage it seemed like the numerical advantage went to the allied pilots in every cage.

In general both sides used simalar strategy and the same result was arrived at in all three sets.

All I know is everyone fought well and had a great time! Special thanks to Nash, Hangtime and Hristo.

I have really enjoyed flying the 109 lately and in Rumble 2002 or the next time this is done I would like to fly for the LW if Hristo will let me. Honestly on any given day the result could have been just the opposite. This is not to deminish the accomplishments of the Allied Victory.

So far I guess it 1 Win for Allied & 1 Win for Axis. My blood was pumping... I can hardly wait until we get to do this again!

SALUTE ALL THAT PARTICIPATED!!!!

Thunder

[AKSWulfe]

Envy can be detrimental to your health.
-SW

[Vulcan]

How about in independent view (neither dedicated LW and tiffie specialist):

1st Round planes were even, LW advantage slightly with faster A5's and climbing G2s.

2nd Allied planes started to pull ahead. P51Bs, Tiffies, F6s, F4s, LA5s, Yaks, better Jugs.

3rd Round was completely off the scale. In our sector we had at least 3, maybe more, Tempests.

I would have to say LW things were fairly disorganised. 60% of the pilots in my cage didn't turn up. I was in desperate need of macro's.

All in all a pretty good simulation of the late war LW, newbie pilots, crap planes, bad organisation  

Next I'd suggest a more simple planeset, the first round was the most closely matched IMHO. And given the Allies did win the first round I think this gives them the definite victory - balanced or unbalanced in the later rounds.

[AKSWulfe]

Hehehe... "LuftWhiners"

I was never really wrong.
<G>
-SW

[Hristo]

IMO, Wmaker is the true hero of the Rumble 2001. Over and out.

[minus]

make a experiment let fly all \ALied in   Lw planes and Lw in alied planes  

weell se if the can spray and pray with  single 20 mm canon and peashoters  

[Zigrat]

Well obviously the allies deserved the win, they got a clean sweep... it wasn't even close. hang and the gang

Nonetheless, i think the planeset would have been more appropriate if 1) the d11 had been omitted from frame 1 (seeing that its date of introduction is more than a year than all otehr planes in the set) and 2) there was a -g6 ASM for the luftwaffe to use in frame 2 (since the only real addition in frame 2 was the 190 a8, which can really be seen as a non addition since it is inferior to the a5 in nearly every way)

again i am stating that the allies clearly deserved the win since they won frame 3, which imo was evenly matched, but the rumble would have been better had the planesets in frames 1 and 2 been considered more carefully (or had the arena set up to have fights at lower altitude)

imo

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Zigrat:
2) Planesets. I'm not arguing the flight models, because i think they are accurate. But the fact is, that since Nash had the takeoffs set to 10,000 ft. the engagement altitude in all three fights was well over 20,000 ft. This gives a heavy advantage to the allies, who in frame 1 in my cage utilized spitfire F.IX and the P47-d11, both planes whoch outclimb, outgun, and outturn outgun the 109-g2 and 190 a5 at those altitudes (20-25000 ft). I personally dont think the D11 should have been included in the first frame, its a early '44 plane not a mid '42 one.

Hehe.. As janneh posted in his screen shot... What the F are you talking about Zig? In EVERY frame we flew against you, we were the low guys through the first half of the fight.

If you guys didn't want to fight up high.. you should have come right at us level and the fight would have never gotton over 18K.

That goes for all frames. And practice? Who could practice? My original tactical plan was also screwed not to mention the fact that most of my original registered pilots nevr even showed up.

[Yeager]

A good thing would be to have a squadron invitational event using the cage format.

Have squads clearly sign up, practice then execute the competition thus avoiding the usual change in plans when the event goes live.

In my experience the LW was above from the start, flew very aggresively, shot me down.

I did not plan or reherse for the event.  I found the terrain stunning but the terrain textures made tracking very difficult for me.

Enjoyed my one frame very much.

Y