Red Tails- Movie

[Butcher]

IIRC, MacArthur didn't "abandon" anything. He was pretty much dragged kicking and screaming out of there by direct order.

Still, I am a little against the idea that he left his troops the way he did, and secondly in korea took a huge huge gamble on the Inchon Landing.

unnecessary risk is always a topic I try to avoid, (same with politics, religion and war) - He might of saved lives, but with a stroke of luck it didn't happen.

I've always had interesting hatred towards field commanders who did this, took any kind of unnecessary risks, although in war time things have to happen.
And sometimes they simply have no choice, prime example is the Hürtgen Forest, I always questioned the tactical sense of this entire operation.

Then again I think its honestly better I stop this topic before it gets out of hand for the wrong reasons.

[Delirium]

On the other hand his strategy saved countless allied lives by bypassing strategically meaningless Jap garrisons, on strategically meaningless Islands, and just leaving them to starve as he gained back the south pacific.

I disagree to that blanket statement as MacArthur could of bypassed the Philippines and instead focused on the islands surrounding Japan, bringing the war to an end sooner. Even the Japanese military were surprised the Philippines got that attention when it clearly wasn't an important target as it was isolated already. The only good thing to come out of the Letye invasion (other than the Phillippino people being free, once again) is the fact the Japanese threw the last of their Naval assets into losing battle.

[Rich52]

I disagree to that blanket statement as MacArthur could of bypassed the Philippines and instead focused on the islands surrounding Japan, bringing the war to an end sooner. Even the Japanese military were surprised the Philippines got that attention when it clearly wasn't an important target as it was isolated already. The only good thing to come out of the Letye invasion (other than the Phillippino people being free, once again) is the fact the Japanese threw the last of their Naval assets into losing battle.

In the end how do you bypass the Phillipines when a promise was made to return? At the time it was a huge morale statement and not invading would have meant leaving the Philipino people, and many POWs, at the mercy of their tormentors even longer. Plus, as you arleady said, the IJN was basically an empty shell after the campaign. The American/Phillipines relationship was very close in those days. It just would have been politically impossable to bypass the Islands most of all when Japan had left such a large force there. Most of all when the Philipino people had fought on with so much courage in a guerrilla campaign.

Its difficult to bypass 400,000 enemy troops when your mission is to destroy them. Also the IJA units were commanded by the brilliant Jap General Tomoyuki Yamatshida "curse blocker wont let me spell it right" and he was a guy you didnt want to leave running Loose. After the war he was railroaded for war crimes, by both MacArthur and Hirohito, even tho he had declared Manila a free city and it was mostly IJN marines who went on rampage there. MacArther hated the guy cause he never defeated The Tiger of Malaysia in combat. Even in the Phillipines the Tiger held out until Hirohitos direct order forced him to surrender. Had Japans feudal Military Govt. listened to geniuses like Yamatoejama and Yamamoto the war could have gone much different.

[Delirium]

In the end how do you bypass the Phillipines when a promise was made to return?

Even in the Phillipines the Tiger held out until Hirohitos direct order forced him to surrender. Had Japans feudal Military Govt. listened to geniuses like Yamatoejama and Yamamoto the war could have gone much different.

Those two statements helped my argument...

1. A general made the promise, not Congress nor the Commander in Chief. MacArthur usurping the power of the President is EXACTLY the reason Truman sacked him in Korea. A general needs to follow orders, just like any other soldier and not make policy.

2. The fact that the Japanese forces didn't surrender on the Philippines until Hirohito commanded it is a good point. If the Philippines were bypassed and the war was over 3 months earlier, Hirohito would of demanded all his forces surrender a few months earlier, saving more American soldiers and possibly some Of the Philippine populace as well.

[Butcher]

Those two statements helped my argument...

1. A general made the promise, not Congress nor the Commander in Chief. MacArthur usurping the power of the President is EXACTLY the reason Truman sacked him in Korea. A general needs to follow orders, just like any other soldier and not make policy.

2. The fact that the Japanese forces didn't surrender on the Philippines until Hirohito commanded it is a good point. If the Philippines were bypassed and the war was over 3 months earlier, Hirohito would of demanded all his forces surrender a few months earlier, saving more American soldiers and possibly some Of the Philippine populace as well.

Another good fact is that Philippines could not of been bypassed, it was one of the largest Naval, Air and Land campaigns of World War two.
Leyte Gulf was the nail in the coffin for the Japanese Navy, also it cut off all free oil from Balikpapan and Palembang - which were extremely vital with oil, the Japanese still could run from Singapore, to Thailand, southern china - but the risk of it when the American's took Philippines was a huge problem.

The Japanese were basically protecting this vital oil which already in short supply, By taking Manila and advancing to northern Philippines it put Bangkok in danger as well as the shipping lanes used to transport oil.

I am quite surprised the American's didn't choose Java or Palembang as an offensive, with soerabaja and batavia a pretty viable target to launch a strike on Singapore, then again I see the U.S. were heading straight for Japan rather then take time to cut off these vital areas.

[clerick]

WOO HOO! Sitting in the theater right now, waiting for the movie to start. Will report in with details. 

More to come... 

[Nefarious]

I'm gonna see it Saturday Matinee.

[clerick]

I'm gonna see it Saturday Matinee.

Wife ack deployed chaff on ME! She learns well... Won two free tickets from a local radio station so I took the only ungrounded kid with.

[Krupinski]

WOO HOO! Sitting in the theater right now, waiting for the movie to start. Will report in with details. 

More to come... 

No spoilers plz... but your opinion of the movie shall suffice.  

[clerick]

No spoilers plz... but your opinion of the movie shall suffice.  

Of course.


 well, this one.. Hitler dies...

[Butcher]

Of course.


 well, this one.. Hitler dies...

Hitler's still pissed the Packers missed the NFL playoffs this year... <insert link to hitlers rampage video #992394234824>

[Krupinski]

Of course.


 well, this one.. Hitler dies...

YOU'VE RUINED IT!!!   

[DREDIOCK]

IIRC, MacArthur didn't "abandon" anything. He was pretty much dragged kicking and screaming out of there by direct order.

This is true. But not all of those left behind agree he should have listened.
There used to be a guy that worked where my mom did when I was a teenager who was one of those left behind and was very bitter at MacArthur leaving and his "shall return statement"

"Yea that (expletive) said. "I shall return." We never (expletive) left."
and would go on ranting about him. Man oh man he hated that man. And I mean LOATH hate. He said alot of guys felt very betrayed by him for following that order.

[clerick]

Ok gents, here goes.

I enjoyed it! The opening scene was fun, but then again every time they were in the air I liked it. It is probably the closest I will ever come to Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????&@r&@r       275922982MltCpy2.10 FILL FILLed Sector; ST500DM002-9YN14 (CC4H) S1D5GMZYData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs?????????????? forced to choke on.  The dialog was so poor at times that even Cuba Gooding Jr. looked like a soft-core porn actress trying to go main stream. I had hoped for more depth here, intelligent conversation or decent character development. Heck! I'd have settled for dialog that approached normal conversation instead of the wooden, dry bread, overly simplified and overly obvious interaction the characters often had. There was often enough cheese that I had to wonder if the Wisconsin Dairy Board had paid for product placement. I seem to remember hearing that they were targeting a specific audience... Apparently it is the "don't bore me with talk, give me 'splosions" crowd. I had an eight year old with me and the dialog never even came close to going over his head.

On a positive note, this wasn't Titanic or Pearl Harbor with its history sprinkled into a love story BS. Is there a little romance? Yes, but it's predictable. Though, they are probably some of the best acted scenes in the movie and the only time you get ANY character development or depth.
Here's where many of you will get grumpy. The added a good dose of Hollywood to your history. Without revealing any specifics, there are a few scenes that are, shall we say, a stretch. I don't mind a few historical liberties in a movie because, first and foremost, it's entertainment, but there are some parts that will get  and  from you  out there.

Over all, I'd give it a five out of ten stars. I didn't go in with any great expectations so I wasn't really let down too much. Eliminate some of the "acting" and add more CGI dog fights and it would get a lot more stars because THAT is what I wanted to see more than the rest. It does earn eleventy stars out of ten from my eight year old. I happily endured the ride home answering as many questions as my limited knowledge could bare and listened to the rave review about how cool this or that was, and that one time the one thing did that other thing, and I think that there is the point. This movie wasn't made for those of us who are "in the know." It was made to imbue the rest with perhaps just a little curiosity. I don't expect that it will turn its target demographic into rabid historians but perhaps it will grab a few.

[Delirium]

which were extremely vital with oil, the Japanese still could run from Singapore, to Thailand, southern china - but the risk of it when the American's took Philippines was a huge problem.

By then, the Japanese tanker fleet was so badly decimated and hunted by American submarines they couldn't move the fuel to the home islands.  In fact, many of their ships weren't even anchored at the home islands for just that reason.

the critical line between Singapore and Japan, efficiency declined by 45% between May 1943 and May 1944, with further substantial declines later  (36 Strategic Bombing Survey, Japanese Transportation, p. 51.)

Like I said, we could of bypassed the Philippines. The entire campaign was for MacArthur, we could of ended the war a few months earlier without it. Heck, we could of had a shooting spree with aircraft and naval assets upon any kind of cargo ship to and from the Philippines once islands closer to Japan were taken.